09.12.96AGENDA
HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
Meeting September 12, 1996
City Hall
City Commission Conference Room
300 N. Park Avenue
Sanford, FL
4:30 p.m.
I. Call to Order and Roll Call
II. Excused / Unexcused Absences
III. Approval of Minutes
August 8, 1996
IV. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness
COMMERCIAL
a) 201 E. 1st Street - Recover existing European retractables.
b) 319 E. 2nd Street - Installation of larger wall sign
V. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness
RESIDENTIAL
a) 219 S. French Avenue - Demolish /salvage structure
b) 510 W. 3rd Street - Demolish /salvage or move house
c) 907 Magnolia Avenue - Room addition
VI. Acknowledgement of Minor Review Committee Actions
a) 717 S. Park Avenue - Exterior paint
b) 814 Elm Avenue - Exterior paint, replace siding
c) 301 E. 7th Street (Student Museum) - Install matching iron gates
d) 215 W. 5th Street - Exterior paint
e) 718 Oak Avenue - Exterior Paint
f) 1119 Park Avenue - Exterior paint
g) 619 Palmetto Avenue - Rebuild porches, no change in design
h) 300 E. 3rd Street - Pressure clean, repair stucco and exterior paint
VII. Discussion Regarding Penalties for Non - compliance
VIII. Main Street Minutes
IX. Other Business
ADVICE TO THE PUBLIC: If a person decides to appeal a decision made with
respect to any matter considered at the above meeting or hearing, he /she may
need a verbatim record of the proceedings, including the testimony and evidence,
which record is not provided by the City of Sanford (FS 286.0105).
Persons with disabilities needing assistance to participate in any of these
proceedings should contact the Personnel Office ADA Coordinator at 330 -5626 48
hours in advance of the meeting.
F:IANDREWIDOCSIAGD09 -96
MINUTES
HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
CITY COMMISSION CONFERENCE ROOM
CITY HALL
SEPTEMBER 12, 1996
4:30 P.M.
1. Call to Order and Roll Call: The meeting was called to
order by Chairperson Laura Sollien at 4:30 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Scott Singeisen
Don Moore
Sue Mitchell
Paul Porter
Kimberly Capucille
Laura Sollien
Michael Skat
OTHERS PRESENT:
Andrew VanGaale, Staff Liaison
Marion Anderson, Recording Secretary
11. MEMBERS ABSENT:
Julia Goeb- excused
Helen Stairs- excused
Jerry Mills- excused
Chris Cranias
It was noted that for last month's meeting, Ms. Stairs
and Ms. Mitchell had excused absences.
111. Approval of Minutes: Ms. Capucille moved to approve as
circulated. Seconded by Mr. Moore. All in favor.
Motion carried.
IV. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness
COMMERCIAL: 201 E. 1st Street - Recover existing
European retractables:
Ms. Capucille moved to approve. Seconded by Mr. Porter
all in favor. Motion carried.
319 E. 2nd Street - Installation of larger wall sign:
Scott Cardell with S & K Enterprises was present and
presented examples of the materials to be used. He
stated that the sign would be 2- square feet larger than
what is allowed. There will be raised graphics on the
sign which is done by sandblasting. The sign will be
black, orange and white.
Ms. Mitchell moved for approval. Seconded by Mr. Skat.
All in favor. Motion carried.
V. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness
RESIDENTIAL: 219 S. French Avenue - Demolish/ salvage
structure.:
Mr. Roy Zimmer was present and stated that he has Item B
- 510 W. 3rd Street also and that he would like to
address this item first. There was no one opposed to his
request and Mr. Zimmer stated that this is the small
white house that he came before the Board some months
back about. The Board said to put a sign on the house
stating that it is a free house and must be moved within
the Historic District. He stated that he did not get
anyone to take it because of the condition of the house.
It is a little house and doesn't have much historical
appeal to it. However, now Mr. Brady Lessard, who took
the other house, has bought a lot in the Historic
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HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996
PAGE 2
District, recently, and wants this house. He is capable
of moving it within the Historic District. Mr. Lessard
has a contractor that will move it. He stated that he is
asking not to demolish this home.
Mr. Lessard stated that it would be moved to 708 S.
Palmetto Avenue and that it is a feasible move.
Mr. Skat moved to approve the request for permission to
move the house to 708 S. Palmetto Avenue. Seconded by
Mr. Moore. All in favor. Motion carried.
219 S. French Avenue: Mr. Zimmer stated that this is the
big, two story house on 17 -92. This house has extensive
termite damage. He stated that he has owned this
property for may be a year and that he did not have
anything to do with the condition or maintenance of the
property long term. Someone should have killed the
termites in there years ago. He stated that about two
months ago he had a termite company come in and tent it.
He hated to see the continued deterioration by termites.
It had dry wood termites. Mr. Zimmer stated that Mr.
Lessard had an interest in this house also. Mr. Zimmer
passed out a sheet containing the expenses that it would
cost to move this house, not including the trees that
would have to be cut. To move this house onto a lot in
the district would mean massive tree removal. He stated
that he doesn't think it is feasible, financially, to
move it.
Ms. Sollien stated that she would like to see some
evidence of termite damage, like photographs. Mr. Skat
stated that he went through this house and it is in bad
shape. The smaller house is in better shape to be moved.
With the big house, there is probably only about 1500
square feet of usable space. He stated that he just
didn't know if this property could be used as commercial
given the expense of restoring it. Mr. Skat stated that
the City has asked this Board to consider actually taking
this piece of property and zoning it out of the Historic
District so that it can be developed properly according
to the Comprehensive Plan. The property is zoned
commercial, and on the agenda it should have been under
commercial property, not residential. The Comprehensive
Plan calls for it to be developed as commercial. He
stated that he did not think that this house could be
developed as a commercial property given the size of it
and the damage to it and in trying to bring it into ADA
requirements. A 1500 square foot building would not
generate enough income as a doctor's or lawyer's office
to be able to service the kind of debt that would be
required to develop it.
Ms. Sollien stated that the Board should pursue having it
taken out of the Historic District because she is not in
favor of demolition as long as it is apart of this
District. If it was a request to demolish it and rebuild
a similar structure, that would be something else but the
Board does not have that request. What we're looking at
is demolishing something within the Historic District and
putting up something that is not historic. As long as
that piece of property and the house is apart of the
District, she stated that she would not be in favor of
demolition.
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HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
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Mr. Skat stated that the City really needs to take a look
at that strip of land because it is not residential. The
Comprehensive Plan has it being developed as retail
space, definitely commercial. The City needs to decide
whether this section of the Historic District, being the
property that faces French, and see if may be it doesn't
need to be rezoned out of the Historic District.
Mr. VanGaale stated that at least if the property is
within the District, we can have some say in what is
going to go there. Mr. Skat stated that the question
posed to him was are you going to stifle development of
that property by having it in the District. What will
come in there that is going to be able to comply with the
historic codes that will be compatible with the other
properties that are along 17 -92. The request to salvage
materials and use them in the other house is noble.
Mr. Zimmer stated that the request wasn't just to tear it
down and haul all the stuff off, the request was to have
the contractor come in and salvage the siding, the
mantle, any floors, windows, anything that is usable in
the Historic District. Mr. Zimmer stated that Mr.
Lessard has a contractor and he could use a lot of the
materials on the other house. We would be salvaging
anything historically significant. Mr. Skat stated that
this Board is not typically in the mode to approve
demolition. One thing that is important is the $73,000
of relocation cost plus $40 to $50,000 for additional
repairs, a 15000 square foot house would not yield this
type of return. Mr. Moore stated that it doesn't matter
if you're relocating or building a house, you have to buy
the property, pay the impact fee, have power and water
hookup. He asked if the boundaries of the District are
determined by ordinance. Mr. VanGaale stated "yes ". Mr.
Moore stated that he feels to allow them to demolish the
house is right, it is going to happen one way or another,
because he feels certain the City will, in fact, change
those boundaries.
Brady Lessard stated that a lot of the materials that are
salvaged and can be used, will be used in the white
house. The problem with the yellow house, is that the
building is too tall to move, it is financially not
feasible. To move it within the District, you would have
to cut back so many Oak trees that it would do more
damage than good. He stated that the City was going to
inevitably grant demolition to it anyway, and at least
there would be the precedent that this house, on an
individual case, salvage what we can, keep in the
District what we can, rather than having to break the
actual precedent of never allowing demolition because
demolition, unfortunately that is what will happen.
Prior to that there is going to be salvage to it and he
didn't know how much of the materials would be used in
the District. For the house that he is planning to move,
this is a way to guarantee that as many materials as
possible will stay in the District. There are a number
of people that are in the process of restoring, and if we
can keep the materials, it would be great.
Mr. Zimmer stated that there are only two other houses on
17 -92 that are in the District, and they are already
fixed up and not this tall so they wouldn't have a
problem if this ever became an issue.
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HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996
PAGE 4
Ms. Sollien stated that what bothers her is the
discussion of moving houses in the District as if this
was our primary choice in this matter. It is not our
primary choice in this matter, its something that we
would be willing to give and give a long way to agree
with to solve the solution. The real solution is to
leave the houses there and keep them in good repair.
Everytime we move a house, we lose more and more of the
District. Everyone is talking about moving these houses
and how feasible it is. This isn't feasible so, as far
as she is concerned, we're back to we can't move the
house. Are we going to allow it to be demolished or is
it going to stay and be repaired. Mr. Zimmer stated that
it will not be repaired. It is commercial property and
too costly to be repaired. Ms. Sollien stated that Mr.
Zimmer is not going to repair it and stated that she
didn't agree with him for making the decision for someone
else who might own the property. We have seen time and
time again, ten years ago, there were so many houses in
Sanford that everybody said weren't worth anything. They
were made into apartments, they were basically slums, and
now ten years later all of a sudden they have a value to
them and people are coming in and fixing up these houses
that weren't worth anything ten years ago. Ms. Sollien
said to Mr. Zimmer that he didn't want to fix it up and
he says its too expensive, at this point in time perhaps
it is, but if the property was sold to someone else,
someone else might, in the future, want to save this
house. Our purpose for being is to save these structures
and to save the District. Mr. Zimmer stated that he is
very sympathetic to the Historic District. He has two
houses out of three that could be saved. He has an old
house in Winter Park that he restored. He stated that he
owns other commercial property and financially the two
story house cannot comply with everything that is
required to make it a commercial rental.
Ms. Capucille asked Mr. Zimmer when he bought the
property with the two historic homes on it, what did he
think he as going to do with them at that time. Mr.
Zimmer stated that at that time he didn't know that he
would have this problem and that he don't have any plans
for the whole property except he didn't want them sitting
vacant and run down. Ms. Capucille stated that it seems
that it would have been a consideration when Mr. Zimmer
purchased the property. He stated that he owns the
property next door. Burger King was looking at it at
that time. He stated that he had looked into building a
little strip center. Aagaard Harbin Construction, two
years ago, worked up a price on a strip center and the
cost compared to the rent in this area was too high. He
stated that when he purchased the property he knew he
wasn't going to rent the houses and.fix them up because
of the cost. He had hoped to add to the commercial value
of the plan that he already has there. There wasn't any
research done.
Mr. Singeisen stated that one of the things we have to
ask ourselves is are we willing to o.k. a demolition of
this property now and basically write a blank check for
the gateway of Sanford. Are we going to say that that
avenue and that corner can be a commercial aesthetic or
will we stand strong for our historic preservation values
and say that this property, whether its demolition and
rebuilt as one like it, that is completely feasible.
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HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996
PAGE 5
Ms. Sollien asked if there was any discussion with Mr.
Marder about zoning this property residential. Mr. Skat
asked why would the City rezone this property that is in
an area that is 14 square blocks commercial and stated
that the City would not rezone this property when it is
surrounded by commercial property. There are vacant lots
for 70% of the land there so why would the City rezone
the area residential. Mr. Skat stated that he did not
understand why that area was brought into the District in
the first place because of the structures that are
involved. Ms. Sollien stated that they were brought in
probably to raise the number of contributing structures.
Mr. Lessard strongly urged the Board to work hand in hand
with the owner of the property. Both sides will have to
give and take. The neighborhood will not suffer. Mr.
Porter stated that he hates to see shrinking of the
district and thinks that something commercial could be
reconstructed that would still be in character with the
district. Mr. Skat asked how does this property relate
to the district. Ms. Sollien replied that it is one
block over. She stated that she would rather lose the
house at the city level rather than lose it at this
Board's level.
Ms. Mitchell moved to deny the. request. Seconded by Mr.
Singeisen. Mr. Moore and Mr. Skat opposed. All others
in favor. Motion carried.
Mr. Moore asked if there was an ordinance or code to keep
properties from deteriorating. Mr. VanGaale replied that
there is a code that requires an owner to maintain
properties. Mr. Skat noted that this house listing was
incorrect, it should have been listed as commercial, not
residential. He did not want this sent to the City
Commission and have them think this is in a residential
area, it is zoned commercial.
Mr. Zimmer stated that he was set to go before the City
Commission to appeal this but he did not want to go
behind this Board's back to try to get the city to over
rule any decisions. He felt strongly about this so he
came back before this Board. He stated that he is very
sensitive to what the Board is doing.
907 Magnolia Avenue - Room Addition: Mary Collins and
Steve Bryant were present. Mr. Bryant stated that he is
requesting to remove 5' of the garage, back to the front.
There will be a new wall with the same siding. 3 1/2'
will be between the garage and the new building. He
stated that the addition will be on a concrete slab. The
roof will follow the same pitch as the garage. The
length of the addition is 28 Mr. Skat stated that he
would like to see it on piers rather than a slab so that
it would have the same look. Ms. Sollien stated that the
Board would prefer that the windows and doors, including
sliding glass, match what is in the existing structure.
Ms. Capucille moved to approve taking down the existing
back porch, adding the extension on the back of the house
on piers as opposed to on a concrete slab, moving 5' of
the garage, the construction materials will be primarily
wood, the wood siding to match the existing, windows and
doors as per Schedule S, double hung windows, the doors
would have to be French doors. Seconded by Mr. Porter.
All in favor. Motion carried.
MINUTES
HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD
MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996
PAGE 6
VI. Acknowledgement of Minor Review Committee Actions - a)
717 S. Park Avenue - Exterior Paint; b) 814 Elm Avenue -
Exterior paint, replace siding; c) 301 E. 7th Street
(Student Museum) - Install matching iron gates; d) 215 W.
5th Street - Exterior paint; e) 718 Oak Avenue - Exterior
paint; f) 1119 Park Avenue - Exterior paint; g) 619
Palmetto Avenue.- Rebuild porches., no change: in design.;
h) 300 E. 3rd Street - Pressure clean, repair stucco and
exterior paint. Mr. Skat moved for approval. Seconded
by Ms. Mitchell. All in favor. Motion carried.
VII. Discussion Regarding Penalties for Non - compliance:
Consensus was to leave the process as it is with Code
Enforcement.
Mr. Moore requested that the applications for Certificate
of Appropriateness be screened more carefully as to owner
signatures and he also requested that size difference and
what is in the regulations be placed on the agendas.
Ms. Mitchell suggested that it could be a new idea for
this Board to consider joint venturing with Habitat for
Humanity. Ms. Sollien stated that if someone would be
willing to contact Habitat for Humanity it would be a
great project for this Board to pick one house that there
are problems with and do a Habitat house. To get the
press and recognition might be just what the Board needs.
Mr. Skat stated that he didn't think Habitat would do
this because of the liability. Ba ically, they build new
houses. He suggested that the Board get with Mr. Rowe
when he is focused on doing a house in the District and
promote this. Ms. Soll.ien stated that she would be
willing to talk to Mr. Rowe concerning this.
There being no further business, the meeting adjourned at
6:00 P.M.