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09.12.96AGENDA HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD Meeting September 12, 1996 City Hall City Commission Conference Room 300 N. Park Avenue Sanford, FL 4:30 p.m. I. Call to Order and Roll Call II. Excused / Unexcused Absences III. Approval of Minutes August 8, 1996 IV. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness COMMERCIAL a) 201 E. 1st Street - Recover existing European retractables. b) 319 E. 2nd Street - Installation of larger wall sign V. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness RESIDENTIAL a) 219 S. French Avenue - Demolish /salvage structure b) 510 W. 3rd Street - Demolish /salvage or move house c) 907 Magnolia Avenue - Room addition VI. Acknowledgement of Minor Review Committee Actions a) 717 S. Park Avenue - Exterior paint b) 814 Elm Avenue - Exterior paint, replace siding c) 301 E. 7th Street (Student Museum) - Install matching iron gates d) 215 W. 5th Street - Exterior paint e) 718 Oak Avenue - Exterior Paint f) 1119 Park Avenue - Exterior paint g) 619 Palmetto Avenue - Rebuild porches, no change in design h) 300 E. 3rd Street - Pressure clean, repair stucco and exterior paint VII. Discussion Regarding Penalties for Non - compliance VIII. Main Street Minutes IX. Other Business ADVICE TO THE PUBLIC: If a person decides to appeal a decision made with respect to any matter considered at the above meeting or hearing, he /she may need a verbatim record of the proceedings, including the testimony and evidence, which record is not provided by the City of Sanford (FS 286.0105). Persons with disabilities needing assistance to participate in any of these proceedings should contact the Personnel Office ADA Coordinator at 330 -5626 48 hours in advance of the meeting. F:IANDREWIDOCSIAGD09 -96 MINUTES HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD CITY COMMISSION CONFERENCE ROOM CITY HALL SEPTEMBER 12, 1996 4:30 P.M. 1. Call to Order and Roll Call: The meeting was called to order by Chairperson Laura Sollien at 4:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT: Scott Singeisen Don Moore Sue Mitchell Paul Porter Kimberly Capucille Laura Sollien Michael Skat OTHERS PRESENT: Andrew VanGaale, Staff Liaison Marion Anderson, Recording Secretary 11. MEMBERS ABSENT: Julia Goeb- excused Helen Stairs- excused Jerry Mills- excused Chris Cranias It was noted that for last month's meeting, Ms. Stairs and Ms. Mitchell had excused absences. 111. Approval of Minutes: Ms. Capucille moved to approve as circulated. Seconded by Mr. Moore. All in favor. Motion carried. IV. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness COMMERCIAL: 201 E. 1st Street - Recover existing European retractables: Ms. Capucille moved to approve. Seconded by Mr. Porter all in favor. Motion carried. 319 E. 2nd Street - Installation of larger wall sign: Scott Cardell with S & K Enterprises was present and presented examples of the materials to be used. He stated that the sign would be 2- square feet larger than what is allowed. There will be raised graphics on the sign which is done by sandblasting. The sign will be black, orange and white. Ms. Mitchell moved for approval. Seconded by Mr. Skat. All in favor. Motion carried. V. Applications for Certificate of Appropriateness RESIDENTIAL: 219 S. French Avenue - Demolish/ salvage structure.: Mr. Roy Zimmer was present and stated that he has Item B - 510 W. 3rd Street also and that he would like to address this item first. There was no one opposed to his request and Mr. Zimmer stated that this is the small white house that he came before the Board some months back about. The Board said to put a sign on the house stating that it is a free house and must be moved within the Historic District. He stated that he did not get anyone to take it because of the condition of the house. It is a little house and doesn't have much historical appeal to it. However, now Mr. Brady Lessard, who took the other house, has bought a lot in the Historic MINUTES HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996 PAGE 2 District, recently, and wants this house. He is capable of moving it within the Historic District. Mr. Lessard has a contractor that will move it. He stated that he is asking not to demolish this home. Mr. Lessard stated that it would be moved to 708 S. Palmetto Avenue and that it is a feasible move. Mr. Skat moved to approve the request for permission to move the house to 708 S. Palmetto Avenue. Seconded by Mr. Moore. All in favor. Motion carried. 219 S. French Avenue: Mr. Zimmer stated that this is the big, two story house on 17 -92. This house has extensive termite damage. He stated that he has owned this property for may be a year and that he did not have anything to do with the condition or maintenance of the property long term. Someone should have killed the termites in there years ago. He stated that about two months ago he had a termite company come in and tent it. He hated to see the continued deterioration by termites. It had dry wood termites. Mr. Zimmer stated that Mr. Lessard had an interest in this house also. Mr. Zimmer passed out a sheet containing the expenses that it would cost to move this house, not including the trees that would have to be cut. To move this house onto a lot in the district would mean massive tree removal. He stated that he doesn't think it is feasible, financially, to move it. Ms. Sollien stated that she would like to see some evidence of termite damage, like photographs. Mr. Skat stated that he went through this house and it is in bad shape. The smaller house is in better shape to be moved. With the big house, there is probably only about 1500 square feet of usable space. He stated that he just didn't know if this property could be used as commercial given the expense of restoring it. Mr. Skat stated that the City has asked this Board to consider actually taking this piece of property and zoning it out of the Historic District so that it can be developed properly according to the Comprehensive Plan. The property is zoned commercial, and on the agenda it should have been under commercial property, not residential. The Comprehensive Plan calls for it to be developed as commercial. He stated that he did not think that this house could be developed as a commercial property given the size of it and the damage to it and in trying to bring it into ADA requirements. A 1500 square foot building would not generate enough income as a doctor's or lawyer's office to be able to service the kind of debt that would be required to develop it. Ms. Sollien stated that the Board should pursue having it taken out of the Historic District because she is not in favor of demolition as long as it is apart of this District. If it was a request to demolish it and rebuild a similar structure, that would be something else but the Board does not have that request. What we're looking at is demolishing something within the Historic District and putting up something that is not historic. As long as that piece of property and the house is apart of the District, she stated that she would not be in favor of demolition. MINUTES HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996 PAGE 3 Mr. Skat stated that the City really needs to take a look at that strip of land because it is not residential. The Comprehensive Plan has it being developed as retail space, definitely commercial. The City needs to decide whether this section of the Historic District, being the property that faces French, and see if may be it doesn't need to be rezoned out of the Historic District. Mr. VanGaale stated that at least if the property is within the District, we can have some say in what is going to go there. Mr. Skat stated that the question posed to him was are you going to stifle development of that property by having it in the District. What will come in there that is going to be able to comply with the historic codes that will be compatible with the other properties that are along 17 -92. The request to salvage materials and use them in the other house is noble. Mr. Zimmer stated that the request wasn't just to tear it down and haul all the stuff off, the request was to have the contractor come in and salvage the siding, the mantle, any floors, windows, anything that is usable in the Historic District. Mr. Zimmer stated that Mr. Lessard has a contractor and he could use a lot of the materials on the other house. We would be salvaging anything historically significant. Mr. Skat stated that this Board is not typically in the mode to approve demolition. One thing that is important is the $73,000 of relocation cost plus $40 to $50,000 for additional repairs, a 15000 square foot house would not yield this type of return. Mr. Moore stated that it doesn't matter if you're relocating or building a house, you have to buy the property, pay the impact fee, have power and water hookup. He asked if the boundaries of the District are determined by ordinance. Mr. VanGaale stated "yes ". Mr. Moore stated that he feels to allow them to demolish the house is right, it is going to happen one way or another, because he feels certain the City will, in fact, change those boundaries. Brady Lessard stated that a lot of the materials that are salvaged and can be used, will be used in the white house. The problem with the yellow house, is that the building is too tall to move, it is financially not feasible. To move it within the District, you would have to cut back so many Oak trees that it would do more damage than good. He stated that the City was going to inevitably grant demolition to it anyway, and at least there would be the precedent that this house, on an individual case, salvage what we can, keep in the District what we can, rather than having to break the actual precedent of never allowing demolition because demolition, unfortunately that is what will happen. Prior to that there is going to be salvage to it and he didn't know how much of the materials would be used in the District. For the house that he is planning to move, this is a way to guarantee that as many materials as possible will stay in the District. There are a number of people that are in the process of restoring, and if we can keep the materials, it would be great. Mr. Zimmer stated that there are only two other houses on 17 -92 that are in the District, and they are already fixed up and not this tall so they wouldn't have a problem if this ever became an issue. MINUTES HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996 PAGE 4 Ms. Sollien stated that what bothers her is the discussion of moving houses in the District as if this was our primary choice in this matter. It is not our primary choice in this matter, its something that we would be willing to give and give a long way to agree with to solve the solution. The real solution is to leave the houses there and keep them in good repair. Everytime we move a house, we lose more and more of the District. Everyone is talking about moving these houses and how feasible it is. This isn't feasible so, as far as she is concerned, we're back to we can't move the house. Are we going to allow it to be demolished or is it going to stay and be repaired. Mr. Zimmer stated that it will not be repaired. It is commercial property and too costly to be repaired. Ms. Sollien stated that Mr. Zimmer is not going to repair it and stated that she didn't agree with him for making the decision for someone else who might own the property. We have seen time and time again, ten years ago, there were so many houses in Sanford that everybody said weren't worth anything. They were made into apartments, they were basically slums, and now ten years later all of a sudden they have a value to them and people are coming in and fixing up these houses that weren't worth anything ten years ago. Ms. Sollien said to Mr. Zimmer that he didn't want to fix it up and he says its too expensive, at this point in time perhaps it is, but if the property was sold to someone else, someone else might, in the future, want to save this house. Our purpose for being is to save these structures and to save the District. Mr. Zimmer stated that he is very sympathetic to the Historic District. He has two houses out of three that could be saved. He has an old house in Winter Park that he restored. He stated that he owns other commercial property and financially the two story house cannot comply with everything that is required to make it a commercial rental. Ms. Capucille asked Mr. Zimmer when he bought the property with the two historic homes on it, what did he think he as going to do with them at that time. Mr. Zimmer stated that at that time he didn't know that he would have this problem and that he don't have any plans for the whole property except he didn't want them sitting vacant and run down. Ms. Capucille stated that it seems that it would have been a consideration when Mr. Zimmer purchased the property. He stated that he owns the property next door. Burger King was looking at it at that time. He stated that he had looked into building a little strip center. Aagaard Harbin Construction, two years ago, worked up a price on a strip center and the cost compared to the rent in this area was too high. He stated that when he purchased the property he knew he wasn't going to rent the houses and.fix them up because of the cost. He had hoped to add to the commercial value of the plan that he already has there. There wasn't any research done. Mr. Singeisen stated that one of the things we have to ask ourselves is are we willing to o.k. a demolition of this property now and basically write a blank check for the gateway of Sanford. Are we going to say that that avenue and that corner can be a commercial aesthetic or will we stand strong for our historic preservation values and say that this property, whether its demolition and rebuilt as one like it, that is completely feasible. MINUTES HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996 PAGE 5 Ms. Sollien asked if there was any discussion with Mr. Marder about zoning this property residential. Mr. Skat asked why would the City rezone this property that is in an area that is 14 square blocks commercial and stated that the City would not rezone this property when it is surrounded by commercial property. There are vacant lots for 70% of the land there so why would the City rezone the area residential. Mr. Skat stated that he did not understand why that area was brought into the District in the first place because of the structures that are involved. Ms. Sollien stated that they were brought in probably to raise the number of contributing structures. Mr. Lessard strongly urged the Board to work hand in hand with the owner of the property. Both sides will have to give and take. The neighborhood will not suffer. Mr. Porter stated that he hates to see shrinking of the district and thinks that something commercial could be reconstructed that would still be in character with the district. Mr. Skat asked how does this property relate to the district. Ms. Sollien replied that it is one block over. She stated that she would rather lose the house at the city level rather than lose it at this Board's level. Ms. Mitchell moved to deny the. request. Seconded by Mr. Singeisen. Mr. Moore and Mr. Skat opposed. All others in favor. Motion carried. Mr. Moore asked if there was an ordinance or code to keep properties from deteriorating. Mr. VanGaale replied that there is a code that requires an owner to maintain properties. Mr. Skat noted that this house listing was incorrect, it should have been listed as commercial, not residential. He did not want this sent to the City Commission and have them think this is in a residential area, it is zoned commercial. Mr. Zimmer stated that he was set to go before the City Commission to appeal this but he did not want to go behind this Board's back to try to get the city to over rule any decisions. He felt strongly about this so he came back before this Board. He stated that he is very sensitive to what the Board is doing. 907 Magnolia Avenue - Room Addition: Mary Collins and Steve Bryant were present. Mr. Bryant stated that he is requesting to remove 5' of the garage, back to the front. There will be a new wall with the same siding. 3 1/2' will be between the garage and the new building. He stated that the addition will be on a concrete slab. The roof will follow the same pitch as the garage. The length of the addition is 28 Mr. Skat stated that he would like to see it on piers rather than a slab so that it would have the same look. Ms. Sollien stated that the Board would prefer that the windows and doors, including sliding glass, match what is in the existing structure. Ms. Capucille moved to approve taking down the existing back porch, adding the extension on the back of the house on piers as opposed to on a concrete slab, moving 5' of the garage, the construction materials will be primarily wood, the wood siding to match the existing, windows and doors as per Schedule S, double hung windows, the doors would have to be French doors. Seconded by Mr. Porter. All in favor. Motion carried. MINUTES HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1996 PAGE 6 VI. Acknowledgement of Minor Review Committee Actions - a) 717 S. Park Avenue - Exterior Paint; b) 814 Elm Avenue - Exterior paint, replace siding; c) 301 E. 7th Street (Student Museum) - Install matching iron gates; d) 215 W. 5th Street - Exterior paint; e) 718 Oak Avenue - Exterior paint; f) 1119 Park Avenue - Exterior paint; g) 619 Palmetto Avenue.- Rebuild porches., no change: in design.; h) 300 E. 3rd Street - Pressure clean, repair stucco and exterior paint. Mr. Skat moved for approval. Seconded by Ms. Mitchell. All in favor. Motion carried. VII. Discussion Regarding Penalties for Non - compliance: Consensus was to leave the process as it is with Code Enforcement. Mr. Moore requested that the applications for Certificate of Appropriateness be screened more carefully as to owner signatures and he also requested that size difference and what is in the regulations be placed on the agendas. Ms. Mitchell suggested that it could be a new idea for this Board to consider joint venturing with Habitat for Humanity. Ms. Sollien stated that if someone would be willing to contact Habitat for Humanity it would be a great project for this Board to pick one house that there are problems with and do a Habitat house. To get the press and recognition might be just what the Board needs. Mr. Skat stated that he didn't think Habitat would do this because of the liability. Ba ically, they build new houses. He suggested that the Board get with Mr. Rowe when he is focused on doing a house in the District and promote this. Ms. Soll.ien stated that she would be willing to talk to Mr. Rowe concerning this. There being no further business, the meeting adjourned at 6:00 P.M.