092608 Special Meetingr
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Special Meeting September 26, 2008
City Conunission, Sanford, Florida _
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1
1 CERTIFIED COPY
2
3 CITY OF SANFORD
4 CITY COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING
5 FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2008
6 12:00 p.m.
7
8
Attorney - Client Private Session held before the
City of Sanford
City Commissioners in the Railroad Depot
9
Room, 2nd Floor,
Sanford
City Hall, 300 North Park
Avenue, Sanford,
Florida,
commencing at 12:05 p.m., and
10
reported by Julie
Evans,
Shorthand Reporter and Notary
Public, State of
Florida
at Large.
11
12
13
14 OFFICIALS PRESENT:
15 Mayor Linda Kuhn
Commissioner Velma Williams
16 Commissioner Art Woodruff
Commissioner Randy Jones
17 Commissioner Jack Bridges
City Attorney William L. Colbert,
18 Assistant City Attorney Kenneth W. McIntosh
19 APPEARANCES:
20 MARCIA LIPPINCOTT, ESQUIRE
Post Office Box 953693
21 Lake Mary, Florida 32795
22
23
24
25
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City Commission, Sanford, Florida 'Special Meeting September 26, 2008
MEMORANDUM
Stenstrom, Mclnto* Co[6ert W6iq�am & Pardow, P.A.
zooi Heat�jrow Par Lane, Suite 4001
Labe Mara, Ff oriba 32746
(407) 322 -2171
TO: Janet R. Dougherty, City Clerk
FROM: Lonnie N. Groot, Assistant City Attorney
DATE: April 6, 2009
SUBJECT: Release of Transcript as Public Record;, March 12, 2007;
Mayfair Golf Course dispute
CC: William L. Colbert, City Attorney
The purpose of this memorandum is to advise you that the transcript of the proceedings
of the City Commission occurring on March 12, 2007 relating to the Mayfair Golf Course
dispute, may be released f6r�public review and inspection, as public records.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. Please feel free to call with questions.
Please call me anytime at the office (407- 322 -2171) or at my cell phone (386- 748 -3685)
if I can be of assistance to you in any way. I answer my cell phone 24 hours a day.
I look forward to seeing you again soon.
Ov
6L,
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Special Meeting September 26, 2008
City Commission, Sanford, Florida
BAU514"IDW
CITY OF SANFORD
CITY COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2008
12:00 PM
Railroad Depot Room
2nd Floor
Sanford My HAU
300 North Park Avenue
Sanford, Florida
-.1.- V•..0wP%10V0%wrw1w V h. N.. '.+.'...'...'.. 0..^d � ~..h. N,Iy../NK.
PERSONS WITH A DISABILITY, SUCH AS A VISION, HEARING OR SPEECH IMPAIRMENT, OR PERSONS NEEDING OTHER TYPES
OF ASSISTANCE, AND WHO WISH TO ATTEND CITY COMMISSION MEETINGS OR ANY OTHER BOARD OR COMMITTEE
MEETING MAY CONTACT THE CITY CLERK IN WRITING, OR MAY CALL 407.688.6010 FOR INFORMATION REGARDING
AVAILABLE AIDS AND SERVICES.
PURSUANT TO SECTION 286.0106, FLORIDA STATUTES, IF ANY PERSON DECIDES TO APPEAL ANY DECISION MADE BY THE
^..i %I ^%f %% MAl1FaSl!`J11 overly, %rrwrr.#Zr9 TS+4d4`f'10&; SEAT:!'J11FJp Ef q_n,.'9h'i'SYIr, ',''Rl .'!v'10p.' 'bifv,�IfJy'4w*'Jl4,#V16 4AUI:g-9,Olt
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS AND FOR SUCH PURPOSE, SUCH PERSON MAY NEED TO ENSURE THAT A VERBATIM
RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS MADE, INCLUDING THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE APPEAL IS TO BE
BASED. This record is not provided by the City of Sanford.
AGENDA
7 } Call to order.
Announce the commencement and estimated length of the attorney - client session
ar. d .tha .r.L��.� r%f .thy►
2) CLOSE the public meeting.
3) Begin Attorney - Client Private Session. City Attorney shall seek advice from
the City Commission concerning pending litigation and expenditures related
fheratD to >ah�iC,h f he C.4)t .Lo- .e parly .fi.I&J .0. the .E.i[ghtwdth . 4.dici~i C.krr011n .and
for Seminole County, Florida.
Persons attending may 'include: "Mayor Unda &ihn
Vice Mayor Dr. Velma Williams
Commissioner.Art W. oodruff
Commissioner Randy Jones
Commissioner Jack T. Bridges
!'ity lVianager Kdr)er't'Y erfi
City Attorney William L. Colbert
Assistant City Attorney Kenneth W. McIntosh
Attorney Marcia Lippincott
Certified Court Reportet
4) END the private session and REOPEN the public meeting.
IS) .A,r.xoDLtn. ce f:he Jar m.. inatiar.� of the . ass%inn
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P R O C E E D I N G S
2
MAYOR KUHN: I'll go ahead and call this
3
meeting to order. This is September the 25th. It
4
is now like five after twelve. This is a meeting
5
that was requested by the city attorney.
6
Do I need to announce who's present?
7
MR. McINTOSH: Your Honor, I respectfully
8
indicate, I think it's September 26th.
9
MAYOR KUHN: Oh, it is.
10
MR. McINTOSH: Yes, please.
11
MAYOR KUHN: You're right. I'm behind a day.
12
MR. McINTOSH: Thank you.
13
MAYOR KUHN: We have myself, the mayor, Linda
14
Kuhn, we have Commissioner Velma Williams,
15
Commissioner Jack Bridges, Commissioner Art
16
Woodruff, Commissioner Randy Jones, also City
17
Attorney Bill Colbert, Ken McIntosh, and Marcia
18
Lippincott.
19
MR. COLBERT: Thank you, Mayor. As you -all
20
recall, at the last regular meeting-of the City
21
Commission I did ask for an attorney - client session
22
to discuss pending litigation. I indicated to you
23
that we wanted to update you on a matter and that
24
we wanted to discuss potential settlement options
25
and strategies that may lead to some cost
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1 containment.
2 That's what we want to do today. The legal
3 team is here. I expect this meeting will take us
4 about an hour, as I indicated to you then. And I
5 think it's appropriate at this time now to go into
6 that attorney - client session. If we could close
7 the door.
8 MAYOR KUHN: Okay.
9 (At this time, the door to the conference room
10 was closed.)
11 MR. C;OLBERT: The case that we want to update
12 you on is the Citizen's Rights versus Sanford
13 case. And before we begin any discussion of that,
14
I want to do what I always do when we have one of
15
these sessions and that is to kind of lay the
16
groundwork of what the session really is.
17
The Florida Statutes provides that attorneys
18
can request an opportunity to meet with their
19
clients, the city commission, and discuss pending
20
litigation. Some people call that a shade
21
meeting. I don't call it a shade meeting; that
22
implies that it's not in the sunshine. This,is in
23
the sunshine. It is simply-a delayed broadcast.
24
You're familiar with sitting down in front of
25
the TV and watching a football game on TiVo? This
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1 is the same thing. There is a record being made.
2 Each and everything that is said here is a public
3 record. At the end of the litigation, the public
4 record will be unsealed; the press can review it;
5! the other side of the case, once it's closed, can
6
review it;
the general public
can review
it. So
7
don't say
anything that you're
not proud
of and
8
willing to
see in the paper or
anywhere
else.
91 And also, to remind you, that we have a court
10
reporter and she would
greatly appreciate all of us
11
speaking one at a time
so that she can get all of
12
our words down when we
speak.
13
With that in mind,
I want to talk for just a
14
minute about the case.
You know, from an
1S
attorney's standpoint,
cases can be incredibly
16
interesting. They're
not always interesting to
17
everybody else, but they're
interesting to us as
18 attorneys.
19 And I guess one reason they're interesting is
20 that they take many twists and turns, and it's an
21 ongoing thing. Whenever one side files a suit, the
22 other side responds to it and then there's strategy
23 sessions and there are hearings; there are various
24 battles, and then at one point the war is over.
25 We've had a couple of battles so far. The City
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has prevailed in keeping an injunction from being
2
entered, which if it had been entered would have
3
stopped the election. The judge agreed with the
4
City's position that the election should be held.
5
The voters voted. They approved the two matters
6
that were on the ballot, and the City has won a
7
couple of battles at this point. But I want you to
8
understand, the war is still going on; that is, the
9
litigation is still pending.
10
There is a hearing next week in this
11
litigation. And the other side, the plaintiffs in
12
this case, would like to see the election rei,ults
13
overturned, would like to see us all the way back
14
to square one. That's their objective.
15
Our objective is to press forward on behalf of
16
the City and to get this matter concluded in a way
17
that's consistent, as much as we can, with the
18
citizens who voted, with the majority of them, and
19
with the instructions that you've given us. So
201 that's where we're headed.
21 We want to do a little bit of,what we sometimes
22 call a SWAT analysis today. SWAT stands for,
23 Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats.
24 And in all litigations there are strengths,
25 weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. And that's
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what makes it interesting to us lawyers and boring
A
2
to the majority of the population. But we're going
3
to have to discuss some of those things with you.
4
There's some things that we want you to be aware
5
of.
6
We believe there is a way to shorten this
7
litigation and save some money and accomplish
8
hopefully the will of the commission and the
9
majority of the voters. But we have to discuss it
10
with you, have you understand it, answer your
11
questions, and, at the end of the day, you need to
12
give us some direction so we know where we need to
13
be with this.
14
I've challenged Mr. McIntosh and Ms. Lippincott
15
at the very beginning of this case to get in and go
16
with it and take it, and they have. I've
17
challenged them recently to do some more research
18
and to come up with some alternatives for us, and
19
they've done that. At this point I want to turn it
20
over to them, to kind of bring you up to date on
21
some of the details of where we are.
22
MR. McINTOSH: With reference to the strengths
23
of the case, you will recall that we appeared at
24
the Request For Temporary Injunction, and Judge
25
Dickey, who is not the judge primarily assigned to
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1 the case but who was sitting in, in the absence of
2 Judge Clayton Simmons, drew some conclusions with
3 reference to the posture of the City and indicated
4 categorically in his order that he did not think
5 that a sufficient foundation had been laid for the
6 entry of a temporary injunction. Thusly, we were
7 able to go forward and determine the desires and
8 wishes of the people as to Ballot Question No. 1
9 and Ballot Question No. 2.
10 Please remember that Ballot Question No.' 1
11 directs its attention to the election date and what
12 we classify as the transition of officers. $allot
1.3 Question No. 2 is that one that deals with all of
141 the different modifications of the charter; I think
151 the number of them probably totaled about 37.
161 The actions of the plaintiff in conjunction
171 with the case is to enjoin, not only the
181 implementation of Ballot Question No. 1, which is
191 the establishment of the election at a different
201 time than is currently being utilized by the City,
21 but also they are interested in trying to do
22 something with reference to gaining an injunction
23 regarding the transition of offices.
24 And then Ballot Question No. 2, there are many
25 items that have been described as Very important to
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the City from the standpoint of modification in
2
accordance with the suggestions of the Charter
3
Review Committee. There we feel that, as we kind
4
of view the situation, the general. reaction of
5
people is that Ballot Question No. 1 is clear and
6
unequivocal in its standards and that most
7
individuals come to the conclusion that ballot
8
question is, from the standpoint of the City, in a
9
good strong posture.
10
Marcy is going to talk to you about that,
11
because she's the one who independently, at our
12
request, has done the research with reference to
13
where we are on each of the ballot questions.
14
I do not hesitate to conclude, as I sit with
15
you today, that Ballot Question No. 2 is not clear,
16
Ballot Question No. 2 is not unequivocal. in the
17
eyes of the Supreme Court of the State of Florida,
18
and that a great deal more information needed to be
19 shared with the voters in conjunction with Ballot
20 Question No. 2.
211 Now, we have some ideologies that we're going
221 to present to you as.to how we think that we can
231 accomplish that which -the City of Sanford is trying
241 to accomplish with reference to the matters that
251 were submitted to the citizens for their approval.
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11 Marcy is going to talk with you a little bit
2 about the weaknesses of the case as she understands
3 the dictates of the Supreme Court of the State of
4 Florida. She and I would not hesitate to indicate
5 to you, as we have communicated.to Mr. Bridges
6 momentarily in the early moments when he arrived
7 early, that if we were on the other side of this
8 lawsuit the City would be in a very different
9 posture today than they are.
10
We feel that we would have already done;
11
appropriate discovery,
we would have already'
12
procured copies
of the transcripts of record;of
13
actions of the
City Commission, and we would have
14
moved the Court
for a summary judgment as to Ballot
15
Question No. 1
and Ballot Question No. 2. We're
16
very happy that
the other side has not done that.
17 I am preparing for the hearing on October the
18 1st, and that's the first opportunity we'll have to
19 stand before Judge Simmons., And they are seeking
20 at that time a permanent injunction to halt all of
21 the activities with reference to the City of
22 Sanford as it relates to Ballot Question No. 1 and
23 Ballot Question No. 2.
24 We are at what's called a cattle call at
25 9:30 a.m., and there are a whole 1pt of cases that
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1 have been set at that specific time. We are
2 prepared to present our position to Judge Simmons.
3 And I am, as I review the work that Marcy has done
4 in preparation for that hearing, fairly confident
5 that we can halt the injunction at this juncture,
6 but that the matter is going to be set at an early
7 date for final hearing.
8 And when final hearing comes, Marcy is going to
9 tell you what she thinks the outcome of the case is
10 going to be. With that information in mind, let me
11 let her talk to you about the supreme court
12 declarations, the statutory mandates, and how she
13 views the two ballot questions.
14 MS. LIPPINCOTT: The Florida Supreme Court has
15 held that the ballot summary has to be so clear
16 that a voter doesn't have to go anywhere else to
17 know what's going to happen. I have deep concerns
18 that our ballot summaries for both Question One and
19 Question Two don't do that.
20 Certainly I don't think there's any question
211 about Ballot Question Two, because all that
22 basically says is, go look elsewhere. And the
23 Supreme Court says that's not sufficient; you can't
24 put the onus on the voter to go look elsewhere.
25 They've got to be able to look at the ballot
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summary and know what this is about.
2
Now, while we have more of an argument with
3
respect to Question One, I still think that there
4
are serious problems there. And I don't think
5
we're going to be able to sustain that one either.
6
So, unfortunately, we have to tell you today that
7
we think we are in trouble here and that both our
8
ballot questions are in jeopardy.
9
MR. McINTOSH: What do you think would result
1.0
if the Court entered a summary judgment or a,
11
judgment adverse to the City and we went to the
12
Fifth District Court of Appeals?
13
MS. LIPPINCOTT: We'd lose.
14
MR. McINTOSH: And would it be on an opinion
15
rendered by the Court, or would it be on a per
16
curiam affirmed declaration, if you could
17
prognosticate the outcome?
1.8
MS. LIPPINCOTT: The easiest thing for an
19
appellate court to do is to simply affirm the trial
20
court decision without explanation. Our Florida
21
Supreme Court has said that an appellate court is,.
22
not required to explain their actions. They,'re not
23
required to write an opinion explaining what they
24
do.
25
And that's very easy for them;, simply a
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1 one -piece of paper that uses three magic words:
2 Per Curiam Affirmed," affirmed without opinion.
3 They don't have to explain themselves. In my
4 opinion, that's what would happen in our case.
5 MR. McINTOSH: What does it mean that the
6 opinion of Judge Simmons would be cloaked, if you
7 please, in a garment of correctness when it goes to
8 1 the DCA?
9 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Any case that goes on appeal
10 is what we use the term, "clothed with presumption
11 of correctness." That means that the trial judge
12 and his judgment gets the benefit of every doubt,
13 and all the presumptions go into, by law,
14 supporting that judgment. And so any appellant in
15 the state of Florida has the uphill battle in
16 trying to set aside a trial court judgment.
17 And there's a very sobering statistic in our
18 state that in only 14 percent of all the appeals
19 that are filed is something done. And then that
20 doesn't mean that 14 percent of the. appeals are
21 won; that just means that some little change may
22 have gotten changed. So appealing a final judgment
23 is an uphill battle, very difficult, and in my
24 estimation we would not prevail.
25 MR. McINTOSH: Now, as we appeared before Judge
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1 Dickey, we laid our emphasis with regard to the
2 strength and sanitizing of the actions of the
3 voters on Ballot Question No. 1. And we have
4 always kind of come to the conclusion that Ballot
5 Question No. 2 was a difficult hurdle to get over;
6 is that correct?
7 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Correct.
8 MR. McINTOSH: Now, in light of that,
9 Mr. Colbert had challenged us to try to do
10 something to strengthen in every way that we'',
11 possibly pould Ballot Question No. 1; is that
12 correct?
13 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Yes.
141 MR. McINTOSH: And you and I went to work in
15 that regard, and we have tried to develop for the
16 City that which we categorize as a method of
17 accomplishing everything that was specifically
18 included in Ballot Question No. 1 through the
19 passage of an ordnance; is ,that right?
20 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Correct.
21 MR. McINTOSH: Now, I'm going,to hand to
22 everybody the work product that we'.have developed,
23 please, in regard to Ballot Question No. 1.
24 There's Art's; there's Randy's; there's the
25 Mayor's; and there's the Vice'Mayoj�'s.
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As you open that material you're going to see
2
that I challenged Marcy to determine, at the
3
suggestion of Mr. Colbert, that appropriate
4
legislation could be passed in due course by the
5
City of Sanford to accomplish exactly what Ballot
6
Question No. 1 was voted upon by the citizens of
7
the City of Sanford. Mr. Colbert indicated that he
8
thought it could be done, if you please, by an
9
ordinance.
10
We've heard of numbers of cities across the
11
lake that accomplished that, and we determined that
12
those cities accomplished it by reason of a special
13
act. And I told Mr_. Colbert that, and he said
14
"Well, the special act may be true with reference
15
to the Volusia County cities, but I am convinced
161 that the City of Sanford can adopt its own
17 ordinance following appropriate statutory procedure
18 and based upon information shared by the Attorney
19 General."
20 And I said to Marcy, "Is that true ?" And
21 you're going to see that this opinion unequivocally
22 indicates, number one, that it can be accomplished
23 by the City of Sanford through the preparation and
24 adoption of an ordinance; that the ordinance can
251 change the election date; that the ordinance can
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1 effectuate the transition of the officers; and that
2 the ordinance can take care of the requirements
3 with reference to the qualification of individuals
4 to run for office.
5 As I presented all that to Marcy, she presented
6 two legislative products for consideration by the
7 commission. Number one product does not include
8 the declaration with reference to qualifying. The
9 other one includes all of the matters that were on
10
for
consideration and voted by the officer the
11
citizens
of
the City of Sanford by a 55.53 majority
12
vote
of 1200
voting in favor and 961 voting
13
against;
the
percentage of those against was 44.47,
14
all
of which
information came directly from the
151 Supervisor of Elections.
161 We respectfully suggest to you, without
171 hesitancy, that the City Commission of the City of
181 Sanford give consideration to the implementation of
191 an ordinance that takes care of all of that which
20 you desire to accomplish, including, number one,
21 changing the election date to the general election.
22 date; number two, the transition of office; and
23 number three, the opportunity for individuals to
24 qualify in accordance with the dictates of that
25 ordinance.
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11 As we undertake that legislative process, I am
21 convinced that it is going to affect the attitudes
3 of the plaintiffs in conjunction with this case.
4 The plaintiffs are totally and completely convinced
5
that they can win
without
hesitancy on Ballot
6
Question No. 2.
They are
not convinced that they
7
can win on Ballot
Question
No. 1.
8 The only people that are convinced as to the
9 status of Ballot Question No. 1 are the people who
10 know more about it than anybody else, and that's
11
Marcy and I. And Mr. Colbert challenged us to try
12
to develop for the commission something that would
13
breathe oxygen into the attempt of the City
14
Commission of the City of Sanford with reference to
15
Ballot Question No. 1, and that's the matter that
16
we have before you.
17
Now we're ready to answer your questions.
18
MR. COLBERT: It's the Commission's turn.
19
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: In reading the ordinance
20
and looking at the whereases and the predicates to
21
justify the legislation, there is no hint or
22
suggestion, other than, "whereas the City
23
Commission has determined that voter turnout and
24 participation increases in years in which county -
25 wide general elections are held." Is it prudent to •
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1 not mention or to mention these election results
2 that are now history?
3 MR. McINTOSH: Marcy will answer that question
4 for you.
5 MS. LIPPINCOTT: I think it's best not to
6 mention.
7 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Not to mention?
8 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Not to mention.
9
MR. McINTOSH: The only thing we think we'll do
10
is sanitize
the position of the plaintiffs in
11
conjunction
with the case and afford them an'
12
opportunity
to try to assault the legislation. The
13
legislation
is not bound, as you look at it, upon
14
the voters'
actions as to Charter Question No. 1,
15
but it is a
complete independent declaration on the
16
part of the
City Commission of the City of Sanford
17
unconnected
with that matter from the standpoint of
18 the record.
19 Now, from the standpoint of communications, the
20 commissioners are afforded the opportunity when
21 questioned, "Why is it that the commission is doing
22 this," I think it's easy for us to'say, "Because
23 that's the will of the people." B,it I do not think
24 it's a very good idea to connect the will of 'the
25 people, please, with Ballot Question No. 1.
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I COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Marcy, scanning your
2 memorandum, apparently back in '94 the answer would
3 have been no, with §166.021, but you had an AGO
4 94 -31; apparently they've revised it -- I've been
5 trying to speed -read it -- and you're satisfied
6 that this is something that we have the legal.
7 authority to do?
8 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Yes.
9 MR. COLBERT: You are correct that historically
10 this could not be done. It began to change about
11 '95 or 196. But there is legislation as late as
12 the last couple of years that reinforces it.
13 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Okay.
14 MR. COLBERT: It's not isolated back to 196.
15 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: So we've got a track
16 record; we've got precedent?
17 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
181 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: All right.
19 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Let me just clarify that.
20 There is no case precedent. There hasn't been a
21 case that challenged these statutes; right?
22 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: But it's been there now
23 for 14 years?
24 MS. LIPPINCOTT: Some years, yes.
25 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: And you would think, we
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lawyers would think, that if there was some way to
2
get at it --
3
MS. LIPPINCOTT: It would have been done by
4
now.
5
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Somebody would have done
6
it? But we've got 14 years of precedent and no
7
appellant -- or any challenges that we've been able
8
to find?
9
MS. LIPPINCOTT: Correct.
10
MR. COLBERT: And continuing efforts by :the
11
Legislature to clarify and reinforce and sev6ral
12
Attorney General opinions interpreting it
13
positively that reverse the Attorney General
14
opinion of '94.
15
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Okay. That's all I've
16
g ot.
17
MAYOR KUHN: Well, I don't have anything else.
18
Obviously, during the period from the Charter
19
Review Committee making the,recommendation and it
20
going to ballot, this became apparent that we had
21
the option; but I think as a consensus the whole
22
commission agreed, yes, we have the opportunity to
23
do this by ordinance but our option was to let the
24
voters make that determination.
25
MR. COLBERT: And they did.
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MAYOR KUHN: And they did. So I don't think
20
2
that we're doing anything that would be going
3
against our constituents. I mean, they voted; they
4
determined what was their desire.
5
MR. COLBERT: Mm -hm.
6
MAYOR KUHN: So that's my feeling on it. We
7
had the ability to do it; we opted not to do it.
8
And I think we correctly acted and let the voters
9
make that determination. I don't think we can be
10
faulted for having let the voters make that
11
determination; albeit there are some people that
12
are unhappy with the voters, but that's what the
13
voting process is all about, so.
14
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: If the ordinance is
15
enacted, where does that leave us in the litigation
16
process relative to Ballot Question No. 2?
17
MAYOR KUHN: That was my question.
18
MR. COLBERT: Well, I'll let Mr. McIntosh and
19
Ms. Lippincott go further. But at first blush, to
20
me, it would not strengthen our position as to
21
Question Two.
22 Whether, if the City adopts this and it's clear
23 to the plaintiffs, if they believe that they cannot
24 undo this, which is Ballot Question No. 1, it may
25 have the effect of lowering their zeal to try to go
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forward, if all they're going for is Ballot
2
Question No. 2. It may; I do not know.
3
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: (Inaudible.)
4
MR. COLBERT: That's what makes lawsuits
5
interesting to lawyers but not necessarily to
6
everybody else.
7
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: What did you say, Art?
8
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: I said out of spite,
9
they might keep going.
10
MR. COLBERT: Perhaps. I do not know the
11
answer.
12
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Spite also gets costly.
13
MAYOR KUHN: I was going to say, that gets to
14
be expensive.
15
COMMISSIONER JONES: But everybody knows what
16
their target is.
17
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Sure. Question Two was
18
not their point.
i
19
MR. COLBERT: No. And,if the City --
20
MAYOR KUHN: By their own admission.
21
MR. COLBERT: -- from a policy standpoint, if.
22
you enacted the ordinance that protects, in
23
essence, Question No. 1 and you did not want to
24
endure continuing litigation costs over Question
25
No. 2, we could basically concede_ Question Two at a
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1 later date and end the litigation. It would give
2 the City some control over the future course of the
3 litigation.
4 MAYOR KUHN: Right.
5 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: If we were to do that,
6 would we be subject to paying their attorney's
7 fees?
8 MR. COLBERT: Well, I mean, everybody can ask.
9 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Right. But if you
10 concede the point?
11 MR. COLBERT: If vou're aski nn mp. mill rl i-hrzw
12 ask, the answer is, certainly.
13 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: I'm asking would it be
14 more likely.
15 MR. COLBERT: If you're asking me could they
16 prevail, I do not think so.
17 MR. McINTOSH: They've already us asked for
18 attorney's fees in conjunction with the case, and
19 we have brought to the attention of the Court two
20 matters; number one, there's no contractual
21 relationship, nor is there any statutory mandate at
22 this juncture. They have not perfected anything in
23 accordance with the dictates of the statute at this
24 time to cascade responsibility for attorney fees on
25 the City of Sanford.
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1
I think if the
City
takes the
action that has
2
been recommended by
Mr.
Colbert in
his
3
communications with
us,
we will be
hearing very
4
soon from the other
side
with regard
to proposals
5
as it relates to Question
No. 2.
We do not intend
6
to go into court on October 1st
and concede
7
anything; we intend
to continue
the battle,
knowing
8
very well how the
war is going
to end, but
we're
9
going to continue
to battle as
aggressively
as we
10
can in the interim
period while
you make a
decision
11
and possibly take
action on the
recommended
12 legislation that we place before you.
13 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: All right. So let's
14 assume the consensus of the Commission --- because
15 it's certainly my position -- that we go ahead and
16 enact the ordinance. That moots and takes Question
17 One, Ballot Question One, it becomes moot; it's off
18 the books. All right?
19 Now, the question I've been wanting to ask, if
20 we then concede, withdraw, or by stipulation
21. acknowledge, without penalty or prejudice or
22 sanction or attorney's fees, under 57.105 that
23 Ballot Question No. 2 needs to be teworked, so we
24 concede that, then, how does the Commission and the
25 City go about enacting all the 37 phanges? Do we
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do it by ordinance?
2
MR. McINTOSH: No.
3
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Do
we have to have
4
another referendum?
5
MAYOR KUHN: Yes.
6
MR. McINTOSH: Yes.
7
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: All right. So we have
8
to put it back to the people,
with hopefully a
9
clarification of the question
itself.
10
MR. MCINTOSH: With 37 valid questions and 37
11
summaries as to each of the 37
questions.
12
MR. COLBERT: That is the
way to protect
13
against litigation.
14
COMMISSIONER JONES: But then the argument
15
becomes, why not just do No. 1
too? Well, if
16
you're going to do another referendum,
why not do
17
it all? And I know that gets
out of the legal -- I
18
mean, I know No. 1 technically
gets protected if we
19
do an ordinance, but then, when
you just look at
20
the big picture of the thing,
then the question
21
becomes, well, why not do No.
1 as well?
22
MR. McINTOSH: The matter
of the Charter
23
Committee's recommendation to
the City with
24
reference to 37 charter changes,
I do not think
25
needs to be considered at this
time.
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1
MAYOR KUHN: Mm -hm.
2
MR. McINTOSH: I think that matter needs to be
3
considered at a later date.
4
MAYOR KUHN: Right.
5
MR. McINTOSH: As we give attention to things
6
that are going to occur shortly with reference to
7
elections and other matters.
8
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Well, I agree with that;
9
I just wanted to understand the sequence as it
10
would p lay out.
11
MAYOR; KUHN : And, Jack, you're making the
12
assumption that we would have to, quote, ungyote,
1.3
"concede. " You know,,if we proceed with the
14
ordinance, then part of the process would be
15
conceding that the other ballot question was
16
inappropriate. And I don't necessarily -- we all
17
know what the ballot question concern was from this
18
group. And I'm not so sure that they'll continue
19
to pursue.
20
MR. COLBERT: Don't know.
21
MAYOR KUHN: Don't know, I know.
22
MR. COLBERT: That's up in the! air.
23
MAYOR KUHN: But their main focus was the
24
election date. By their own admission, by some of
25
the people involved in this lawsuit, they weren't
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concerned, but they
felt
it was easier to advertise
2
it to just vote "no"
on both.
3
MR. Mc1NTOSH:
Well,
Mr. Woodruff has put his
4
finger on the point
that
they may, out of spite or
5
whatever you want to
call
it, continue.
6
MAYOR KUHN: Sure.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. MCINTOSH: We can't control that.
MAYOR KUHN: No, we can't.
MR. McINTOSH: The only thing we can do is put
you in the best posture that we can possibly put
you in, from the standpoint of the implementation
of the desires of the Charter Committee with
reference to Ballot Question No. 1.
MR. COLBERT: And, you know, looking down the
road to the future, if Ballot Question No. 2 needs
to be addressed legislatively, by referendum in the
future, it doesn't necessarily mean that there'd
have to be 37 questions.
MAYOR KUHN: Right.
MR. COLBERT: Some of them maybe able to be
combined. But multiple questions, as opposed to
one question.
MAYOR KUHN:
MR. COLBERT:
position.
One.
Would strengthen the City's
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MAYOR KUHN:
Sure.
2
MR. COLBERT:
Now, I've had cities for 30 -some
3
years adopt changes to the charter with one
4
question.
5
MAYOR KUHN:
Mm -hm.
6
MR. COLBERT:
And I've had them challenged a
7
few times and have been able to prevail in those
8
instances.
9
MAYOR KUHN:
Mm -hm.
10
MR. COLBERT:
But we've concluded in this
11
instance, ; based on all of the facts --- and each
12
case is unique --
that this one is at risk.
13
MAYOR KUHN:
Mm--hm.
14
MR. COLBERT:
Which is why we're here talking
15
to you.
16
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I'd like to ask a
17
question. Regarding the city ordinance that we're
18
talking about, the question I want to ask is, will
19
it be a one -time
city ordinance, for just for the
20
here and now? Because it will have to address the
21
election and the
terms extensions,,wouldn't it?
22
MR. COLBERT:
Yes.
23
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: -So it;would have to be
24
a one -time city ordinance?
25
MR. COLBERT:
Well, you would :pass one
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1 ordinance, Commissioner, which would have the
2 effect of amending the charter permanently so that
3 the election then occurs at the general election
4 time, as opposed to, I believe, it's March that we
5 currently have elections. You would not have to
6 pass future ordinances; it would be a one -time
7 ordinance.
8 If you did pass it, it would have the effect,
9 just as the charter amendment would have had the
10 effect, of one time extending terms of office.
11 Does that answer your question?
12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That answers my
13 question. The other question I wanted to ask was
14 regarding Amendment 1. Do you think that that was
15 clearly -- clearly explained for citizens to
16 understand? That it did include two snprifir.
17 things, number one, that we're talking about
18 elections being changed, and number two that we
19 also were talking about term extensions for the
20 commissioners.
211 MS. LIPPINCOTT: You're asking me?
22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whomever.
23 MS. LIPPINCOTT: No, ma'am, I don't think it
24 was clear enough.
25 COMMISSIONER JONES: It seems that changing the
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date is clear. I mean, that seems to be clear.
2
MS. LIPPINCOTT: That's clear. But the
3
ramifications.
4
COMMISSIONER JONES: I think the other two
5
issues -- well, the other primary issue is the
6
extension of the terms. And I believe the third
7
part of it was to address the transition and
8
actually the time to take office, I believe, the
9
swearing -in portion.
10
But that is referenced by code number, not --
11
or charter number, not -- section number. Section
12
number, not specifically by words.
13
MR. COLBERT: That's correct.
14
COMMISSIONER JONES: And that's what the
15
concern is; right?
16
MR. COLBERT: Well, it's a concern the other
17
side has raised; it is a concern that we've looked
18
at and feel there's exposure to the City for.
19
MR. McINTOSH: I've tried to determine, through
20
communications with the clerk, just how many
21
individuals in the city of Sanford ever
22
communicated with the city clerk for any
23
amplification, any inquiry, any digest, any
24
document that would help them with reference to
25
what the questions were all about_.; And there were
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1
three citizens that ever inquired as
to any
2
question that they had prior to the
day of the
3
voting. And all of those questions
that were asked
4
were questions with reference to, how
do I vote;
5
how do I mark the ballot. And none
of them had to
6
do with any of the substance of the
ballot
7
questions.
8
MR. COLBERT: One thing perhaps
worth
9
mentioning here is -- again, from the
law side of
10
it, which is the only way I know to
look at it --
11
the law changes over time; it's not
static. What
12
works at one point doesn't always work,
because
13 courts issue opinions.
14 If you look back four years to the presidential
15 election, the last one, there have been a number of
16 concerns all over the country that were not
17 concerns before that. And there have been cases
18 and reviews done in a different way than were
19 historically done, and words are more sensitive
20 because of our recent history, as opposed to 20,
21 30, 40 years of history.
22 So that's what we're Looking at as we sit and
23 kind of analyze this; look at where we are on the
24 facts, look at where the courts are on issuing
25 opinions. It's very interesting from a legal
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standpoint,
but not otherwise.
8
2
MR. McINTOSH: Our desire today is to
gain from
3
you some instruction
with reference to the
by
4
intention of
the City Commission regarding
this
S
legislation,
and do you want us to proceed
with
6
reference to
the matters that have been handed to
7
you, in light of
all the information we've been
8
able to share with
you.
9
i
MR. COLBERT:
The timetable would be, if
by
10
consensus you -all
ask that the ordinance go
11
forward, it could
go on for first reading at,the
12
next commission meeting;
it would be on the
agenda.
13
And then it would
go for second reading, in
the
14
course of events,
at the meeting after that,
and
15
then it would be
effective upon its passage
and
16
adoption.
171 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: That would be by the
18 end of October?
19 MR. COLBERT: By the end of October.
20 COMMISSIONER 'WOODRUFF: If we let the
21 litigation play out, when do you think we would
22 have a firm decision?
23 MR. McINTOSH: Probably 30 day$ from October
24 the 1st, depending on what happens.
25 MR. COLBERT: Depending on the Court's
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2 MR. McINTOSH: Well,
3 at that specific hearing.
4 strategies that we intend
5 and we will be proceeding
6 want to do, we want to pr
September 26, 2008
32
depending on what happens
We have some pleading
to present to the Court,
along. The only thing we
otect the Court from in
7 any way hampering our implementing the legislation
8 that we've handed to you for consideration this
9 morning.
101 We do not think the Court can do that. We
11 think that there's a difference between your
12 legislating independently and your legislating the
13 dictates of the ballot questions that might be
14 subject to attack.
15 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Query. Wouldn't the
16 Court lose subject matter jurisdiction if the
17 1 ordinance was enacted prior to the final hearing
18 before the Court?
19 MR. McINTOSH: Yes.
20 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: What is that?
21 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Subject matters means
22 the ability to move.
23 MAYOR KOHN: The Court's ability to rule on it.
24 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: It's no longer on his
25 plate. It's gone, because we legislatively took it
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away from him. He's judicial; we're legislative.
2
MR. COLBERT: We sometimes call it "mootness."
3
MAYOR KUHN: Well, I think --�
4
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: I think -- I'm sorry.
5
MAYOR KUHN: No, go ahead.
6
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: What I'm thinking is we
7
have to have this settled because if the election
8
date is not changed we have a qualifying period
9
coming up in January, so it has to be settled in
10
time.
11
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Well, I don't know how
12
the rest of you feel, but my direction -- there's a
13
question by Bill and Ken and Marcy to put that
14
ordinance before us for first reading at our
15
earliest and next available meeting. That's my
16
input.
17
MAYOR KUHN: That's my input also.
18
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Well, my struggle is I
19
am personally against it.
20
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You are personally
21
against what?
22
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Changing the election
23
date. But it is what the voters said.
24
MAYOR KUHN: Yes, the voters said.
25
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I do not want to
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1
express
any real
persona].
concerns that I have.
2
Because
I try to
put them
in the background when I
31 make a decision in terms of what's in the best
4 interests of the City; however, I am very sensitive
5 about this because of -- and I'm very sensitive
6 about it because of the perception that's out
7 there.
8 And I know that we can't always be concerned
9 about perceptions. But especially when it come to
10 Commissioner Williams and District Two, the
11 perception is that I'm the one who pushed for this,
12 and the reason that it occurred is because of
13 Commissioner Williams. And I've had some problems
14 with even people in my community, not only my
15 community -- and my district extends beyond
16 Goldsburg, okay? But I've had people -- I've tried
17 to explain to people that there was no personal
181 gain; I was not interested in extending my term.
19
You know, that's what
they have perceived; I
20
was
interested in pushing
to extend�my term. And
21
it's
been difficult for me
to explain to them. I
22
gave
them two reasons why
I recommended it. So I'm
23
very,
very sensitive, very,
very sensitive about
24
this
whole issue.
25
And there are persons
who did say that some of
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them
voted for
it because, "Great,
Commissioner
2
Williams' term
will be extended."
There are others
3
who,
"We don't
want her term to be
extended."
4
That's
all been
in my community.
So I'm saying
5
that
I'm very,
very, very, very sensitive
about
6
it.
statement, but I'm trying to
16
give you a minute
7
And I was --
and, Art, I'm going to say, as I
8
said to a couple
of other people, that initially I
9
was for it and I
explained why I was for the
10
election -- I mean
the election changes, but then
11
after thinking about
a variety of things, then I
12
myself, you know,
well, maybe this is not in�the
13
best interests of
the City.
14
COMMISSIONER
JONES: Velma, I'm not going to
15
challenge your own
statement, but I'm trying to
16
give you a minute
here.
17
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay.
18
COMMISSIONER
JONES: I don't think it's fair
191 for you to come down on yourself that way and
201 present it in that manner.
21 And this is why. Yes, it may be that it was a.
22 recommendation for you for the Chatter Review
23 Committee to look at it because admittedly, and
24 particularly a lot of times within the black
25 community, there is confusion on election day
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1 because city polling places do not coincide with
2 general election polling places, and when we get to
3 general election time, there's a lot of confusion.
4
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure.
5
COMMISSIONER JONES: When it is the city
6
polling place, you know, they may live in -- just a
7
random district -- they may live in District 32,
8
but District 32's voting place is down the street,
9
not where they vote in the city. But the problem
10
is, where they vote for the city is 33's polling
11
place. So there's been a lot of confusion and a
12
lot of heartache over the years amongst many
13
people.
14
And I remember when you brought that up. That
15
was the primary reason to ask the Charter Review
16
Committee to look at that. So I don't -- I mean, I
17
know it was your statement, but I disagree with
18
your statement that it was you that was pushing for
19
it or pushing it; I don't believe that to be true.
20
It is true that you did say for them to look at it
21
and to do it, but the problem is, there was nine
22
members on the Charter Review Committee.
23
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure.
24
COMMISSIONER JONES: Of random votes in the
25
city.
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1 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: A cross section.
2 COMMISSIONER JONES: A very broad cross
3 section. And they are the ones that ultimately
4 made the decision. And I even -- I mean, I stayed
5 out of the whole issue; I didn't even come to
6 meeting number one. But you would hear it in the
7 paper that they were talking about certain things
8 or you would read the minutes. And, you know,
9 there were things I agreed with and some things I
10 disagreed with, but I think by and large -- I know
11 I stayed out of it and I believe we all stayed out
12 of it -- the conversations with those individual
13 members, and both the questions, it does say, "as
14 recommended by the Charter Review Committee."
15 Now, that group I think don't really sincerely
16 believe that; I mean, they believe it was mostly
17 done by us, from some of the statements I've been
18 accosted with.
19
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:,
Yes.
20
COMMISSIONER
JONES: And
then when you go to
21 correct them, they just don't want,to hear anything,
i
22 of the truth.
23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER JONES: Here's where I struggle
25 with the whole thing, is that Question One is
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1 clearer than Question Two, but Question One still
2 has holes in it. Because the second two sections
3 are not put into words; they're just referenced.
4 And the concern is that the Court -- there's a
5E higher -- this is the question. Is there a higher
6 probability that they would rule that Question One
7 would be considered too vague?
8 MS. LIPPINCOTT: A higher probability than?
9 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Meaning, if they could
10 only throw out one question, which question would
11 they throw?
12 COMMISSIONER JONES: Well, no. If they took
13 Question One as its own individual unit.
14 MR. McINTOSH: There is a high probability that
15 they will conclude that Question One does not meet
16 the mandates of the Supreme Court decisions by way
17 of summary explanation.
18 COMMISSIONER JONES: Okay. Then here's where
19 my concern is, is that if there's a high
20 probability of that and that is a true concern,
21 then I have a little bit of trouble forcing ahead
22 with the ordinance just to go, "Well, there you go;
23 how about that," instead of -- I mean, if we need
24 to have an election to redo the 37 or so questions
25 on items on Number Two and put them in clear and
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1 concise terms, then if there is concern on One,
2 then why shouldn't we go ahead and put it in clear
3 and concise terms as well, and put it back to the
4 voter in what would be a special election at this
5 point?
6 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: I'm not saying this as
7 rebuttal; I'm just picking up on what you just
8 said. Bill mentioned something earlier, the law is
9 very fascinating to lawyers; it's very boring to
10 non- lawyers. I wrote an article for the Sentinel
11 many years ago, and I said the law is a mirror
12 image of society, but the reflection time is;slow.
13 And what I was trying to convey is today's
14 political dilemma is tomorrow's new statutes.
15 The reflection time takes time. Like Bill
16
said,
after the past presidential
election, I would
17
hate
to think how much money and
time and effort
18
has been
spent in trying to
refine the
election
19
process.
20
Now,
I respect everything that's been said.
21
Whether I
agree with it or
not, I don't
know. But.
22
here's what
I do know: Ms.
Lippincott,
who I've
23
known more
years than we're
willing to
admit, is an
24
appellate
expert and a damn
fine one.
She has
25
given you
answers couched in her._expertise.
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we
1
We
lawyers have a very
well known weakness; we
2
"Well, the election
define
everything in concepts
of law. The best
3
would be extended,
lawyers
I've ever met were
lawyers who had to deal
4
19
and had
the ability to deal
with practicalities in
5
what Question One, did,
business.
21
6
tear that to pieces in an
Can both questions be defeated judicially? I
7
appellate brief; because
think so.
I think we would
fare better on Question
8
But Sanford is not full of
One; I
think we would lose
Question Two. But I'm
9
25
trying
to put myself in the
position of why the
10
five of
us are sitting here.
We were elected to
11 try to make the best policy decisions we could for
12 our constituents and our community.
13 If you go poll everybody in the Colonial Room
14 right now and say, "What was your understanding of
15
Question One ?"
16
"Well, the election
would be delayed to
17
coincide, and your terms
would be extended,
18
Something like that."
19
Well, as a practical matter, that's exactly
20
what Question One, did,
exactly. M.s. Lippincott,
21
with her expertise, can
tear that to pieces in an
22
appellate brief; because
I've seen her writing, and
23
I respect her writing.
But Sanford is not full of
24
Marcy Lippincotts; it's
full of constituents and
25
voters. And the Joe Blow
constituents and voters
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1 out there said, "No problem."
2 And what Randy said to you, Velma, and my way
31 of viewing what he said to you was, don't be too
4 sensitive; because if some of your constituency
5 thought you were doing this for selfish gain, then,
6 most respectfully to your constituency, they're
7 wrong. Because I was sitting right by you when you
8 brought it up, and it had to do with the confusion
9 of the polling places. And there is confusion.
10 Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember when
11 the City Qommission in the early 170s changed it
12 from the general date to the special date - -land,
13 Art, I think we've talked about it -- whereby the
14 ideal was, hopefully a March election would
15
generate more
interest.
And I think all of
us have
1.6
talked about
it at work
sessions, that the
March
17
election
would generate more interest.
There would
18
be more
candidate debate; there would
be more
WEJ
20
candidate forum.
Well, I think it did for the first year or two,
21 and now that's just not the case. More people are.
22 going to turn out for general elections,
23 statistically, than a special election.
24 Then there were some other factors involved.
25 -Ms. Doughtery, our clerk, said, "Our special
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1
election costs us 50,000 bucks, plus." People,
2
we're in a recession. Look what happened this
3
morning. Washington Mutual went down. The
4
president is talking about a $700 billion bailout
5
that we're not going to pay for because we won't
6
live long enough; our kids and grandkids will pay
7
for it.
8
Art, you struggled with it on, I guess, the
9
basis of a personal concept?
10
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Yes.
11
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Well, I would gently
12
remind you the majority of our constituents have
13
told us they want it changed. And I say this
1.4
tactfully and most respectfully to you that I think
15 your personal .feelings have to be secondary to John
16 Q. Public.
171 Velma, your sensitivity I think is self-
18 imposed, because I'm sure you have many
19 constituents -- in fact, I had one of your
20 constituents tell me he'd like you appointed for
21 life. And I said, "Well, if you can get her in,
22 how about helping me ?"
23 There's no easy decision in a shade meeting,
24 but competent counsel has told us this is the way
25 to do it. I think it reflects the will of the
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1 people, the will of the people. We save our
2 constituents $50,000 plus, and I think we take the
3 stinger out of the bee, as far as the opponents.
4 Because, people, let's be candid; that lawsuit
51 exists for one primary reason, and we all know it.
6 And it's a shame that that group -- and they have
7 the right to litigate. We live in a litigious
8 society. It's a God -given right in America to sue
9 and be sued; I call it litigious paranoia. Our
10
society
has
been reacting
to it for a long time.
11
+
It's
a
shame that they didn't have the a.nszght,
12
the ability,
or just plain
reasonableness to
13
support
the
second ballot
question, because it was
14
nothing
but
good things.
Cooper and that committee
151 spent, from what I was told, over 400 hours. And
161 we all appointed our various members. And I think
171 it was a darn good work product.
181 And they could have -- correct me if I'm wrong,
19
we've
got three and
a half ,brilliant lawyers
in
20
here
-- they could
have challenged simply Ballot
21 Question One, couldn't they?
22 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
23 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: But when I looked at the
24 handout, it said, vote no on both. And I asked one
25 of the members, funding members of the plaint iff'.s
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case, "Are you -all really against Ballot Question
2
Two? There was some good work in there, hard
3
work."
4
He said, "No, not at all." He said, "But our
5
advisors said it was easier to tell the public,
6
just vote no on both."
7
Well, that's a hell of a reason; just vote no
8
on both. You know, out there, there are some
9
educated voters. There are some informed voters.
10
So I rest.
11
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: May I ask another
12
question?
13
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: I'm done.
14
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In terms of putting
15
Amendment Two back on the ballot, I guess I'm just
16
sitting here wondering, what would be the
17
disadvantage to the City of Sanford, you know, to
18
put both of them back on the ballot? If you're
19
going to send it back to the people, what would be
20
the disadvantage for the City if you put both of
21
them on there?
22
MR. COLBERT: Well, if you're talking about
23
advantages or disadvantages, I mean from a policy
24
standpoint you -all would have to weigh that. From
25
a legal standpoint, it will require another
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referendum at'some time. And you folks would have
2
the control of doing that referendum, but I don't
3
think one could be held until after the first of
4
the year. You may or may not want to do it then.
5
You may want to do it later on.
6
It's a timing issue more than anything else.
7
You could not get this on the ballot for November.
8
It's even too late to get it on for December. So
9
if you do not enact an ordinance as to Question
10
One, then qualifying starts right after the first
11
of the year, and there's an election in March.
12
That's certainly not the end of the world and
13
there's nothing wrong with that, but it is contrary
14
to what the charter review folks recommended and
15
contrary to what the majority of the people who
16
voted in this past election voted for. But, again,
17
from a legal standpoint, it doesn't matter that
18
much.
19
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF:, It's also the cost of
20
$150,000, by the time you get legal work to do the
21
ordinance, by the time you do the ,referendum,
22
unless we wait until there's another county -wide
23
election. But I think the point is that it's not a
24
matter of, if you're doing another referendum
25
anyway, why don't we put the first question on
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again; it's that
if we do this, quite possibly we
2
won't have to have
another referendum.
3
MAYOR KUHN:
Right.
4
MR. COLBERT:
Correct.
5
MAYOR KUHN:
And that's the legal advice I
6
think we're being
given.
7
COMMISSIONER
WOODRUFF: But the bottom line --
8
can I say one more
thing and then I'll shut up?
9
MAYOR KUHN:
Sure, but I know you won't shut
10
up. But go ahead.
11
COMMISSIONER
BRIDGES: "Teacher of the Year."
12
went to his head.
13
COMMISSIONER
WOODRUFF: Is the bottom line, if
14
we do this, the rest of the problems probably go
15
away?
16
MR. McINTOSH:
Yes.
17
MR. COLBERT:
Yes, that is the assumption.
18
MR. McINTOSH:
The word is "may."
19
COMMISSIONER
BRIDGES: It takes the stinger
20
out.
21
MAYOR KUHN:
Right.
22
MR. McINTOSH:
It may go away.
23
MAYOR KUHN:
And there would be no hearing. WE
24
understand that.
25
MR. COLBERT:
We're kind of coming full circle,
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1 but what I asked the legal team to do would be to
2 come up with a potential strategy --
3 MAYOR KUHN: Right.
4
MR. COLBERT: --- to accomplish the majority of
5
the commission's will and the majority of the
6
voters' will as economically as possible. And
7
this, from an economic standpoint, saves you
8
$50,000 in a special election right after the first
9
of the year. It would not be held. And it saves
10
you additional legal expenses in going forward with
11
this for several more months or however long'it
12
would take to get some resolution to it.
13
MAYOR KUHN: Well, here's my two cents, and
14
then I'll be quiet. And you know I always have to
15 add my two cents.
16 MR. MCINTOSH: I need a very small break,
17 please. I'll be right back.
18 MR. COLBERT: We should not talk with someone
19 out of the room.
20 (At 1:10 p.m. the meeting was in recess, then
21 resumed at 1:15 p.m.)
22 MR. COLBERT: Let the record reflect that
i
23 Mr. McIntosh and Mayor Kuhn are back in the room,
24 that the reporter remained in the room the entire
125 time, and that there was no discussion off the
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1 record, no comments off the record.
2 MAYOR KUHN: My turn? Does the mayor get to
3 speak? I think we've all struggled with this as a
4 dilemma. As I said previously, when it was
5 presented to us we knew that the ordinance was a
6 possibility. I mean, we pay Mr. Colbert,
7 Mr. McIntosh, and Ms. Lippincott the big bucks, as
8 we always like to say that we get paid, to help us
9 come to a conclusion on a decision. I think their
10 legal advice to us is to proceed with the
11 implementation of the ordinance.
12 Part of the assumption that I'm hearing kind of
13 being tossed around is that those people who got
14 out to vote -- which obviously it was a low number,
15 but historically our voting turnout is always low
16 -- were uninformed and didn't know what they were
17 voting on. I'm kind of offended that we might be
18 taking that position.
19 Granted, I would say that Question Two was
20 probably difficult to interpret. As Ms. Lippincott
21 has said, it didn't follow the guidelines, you
22 know, where it said for further information to go
23 somewhere else. I don't think Question One was
24 that vague.
25 And I guess I have to add this, the thing that
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really irritates me that here we
are in this
2
position and spending
taxpayers'
dollars going
3
through litigation and
not one of
the financial
4
backers of this group
is a voting
resident of the
5
city of the Sanford.
I find that
to be very
6
offensive, but that's
my personal
opinion.
7
I think that it's
important that we listen to
8
what Mr. Colbert, Mr.
McIntosh, and
Ms. Lippincott
9
is telling us, and I think
that their
advice is to
10
proceed with the implementation
of the
ordinance.
11
I think it will potentially
eliminate
the dilemma
12
that is being put in front
of us.
13
COMMISSIONER JONES: I
agree with
that. And I
141 took a space policy class dealing with government's
15
policy
towards outer
space at UCF.
And the tests
16
would
always give you
five possible
scenarios; you
17
either
have to defend
or tell why --
you have to
18
write
basically a
one -page
paper for
or against, no
19
matter
what your
thoughts
or feelings
are.
1201 I'm concerned on this one that Question One --
21 well, Question One potentially cou.d be ruled as
22 not being sufficient enough for the voters, and
23 that seems to be a big hole-in the bucket there.
24 However, with that, it was widely reported and the
25 City sent out, distributed information to the
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1
public regarding
exactly what
was taking place.
2
MAYOR KUHN:
And what it
would do.
3
COMMISSIONER
JONES: What
it would do, what the
41 results would be.
5
MAYOR KUHN: Right.
6
COMMISSIONER JONES: How it would be handled.
7
The opposing group spent untold amounts of money
8
on, we'll use the term loosely, informing the
9
voters, to the point that through a third party,
10
through my brother, who was at their victory party,
11
the statement was made to him that, "I can't
12
believe it still passed with all the money we spent
13
on this."
14
So the way I see that is, yes, they were
15
putting a very negative campaign out there, but yet
16
they were also informing folks of what was taking
17
place and they were taking a position on it,
18
obviously. But then I go back and I struggle with,
19
but the Court could rule that the question, may
20
very potentially rule, that that question was no
21
good to begin with.
22
MAYOR KUHN: But the bottom line is, Randy, we
23
still have the ability to do it by ordinance.
24
COMMISSIONER JONES: Correct. And we discussed
25
that in the beginning.
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3
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8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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Special Meeting September 26, 2008
City Commission, Sanford, Florida
MAYOR KUHN:
COMMISSIONER
legal ability to
messed up. Does
necessarily make
do?
Right.
JONES: However, does having the
do it --- pardon me, my back is
having the legal ability to do it
it the absolute right thing to
51
MAYOR KUHN: I guess we could ask that question
on every decision we make. Everything that's
brought before us, as far as policy is concerned, I
have to assume that it's been reviewed by our legal
team and we have the legal ability to do it.' So I
mean, that becomes a policy decision.
COMMISSIONER JONES: Then let me ask the next
scenario. An ordinance needs three people to vote
in the affirmative to go into effect. What happens
if the ordinance fails?
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Then it fails.
MAYOR KUHN: Then it fails.
COMMISSIONER JONES: Then where are we in terms
of...?
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: We're,spending $100,000
on a referendum.
COMMISSIONER JONES: So then the question that
-- does the question of Number One's validity and
-legal standing on paper then.go right back to the
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1
Court for the Court to rule on? And
then, if they
2
rule against, then
we're back to...?
court,
9
3
MR. COLBERT:
Well, if the ordinance
does not
4
go forward either
by consensus today
not
to go
5
forward or by lack
of passage fails
to be
enacted,
6
then we are in the
legal case in the
same
position
71 we are right now; it goes forward for ultimate
8
resolution
by the judge
or
by
an appellate
court,
9
if somebody
chooses to
take
it
that far.
That's
101 the legal answer to your question.
11 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: You know, Randy, you hit
12 on a point a minute ago, and I meant to amplify
13 when you talked about the committee, nine people.
14 And I said, cross section. I think there's been
15 not enough emphasis on our discussion here today.
16 You know, the mayor is right; we could have just
17 bulldozed it by ordinance. But the commission,
18 with the mayor's leadership, said, let's create a
19 committee.
20 You've all heard me say before,. I'm not a big
21 committee person. Committees, to me, slow things
22 down. We're entrusted with the policy making
23 decisions, and I think most respectfully sometimes
24 committees are appointed and created because the
25 policy makers want to duck the issue.
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11 MAYOR KUHN: Mm -hm.
2 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: And I say that
3 respectfully to any committee that I've ever set
4 I on.
5 To me, it's pretty simple, in my mind. We gave
6 it to the committee. We didn't opt to do it
7 legislatively by ordinance. The committee made
8 these recommendations. Let's remember: It wasn't
9 Velma, it wasn't Linda, it wasn't Randy, it wasn't
10 Art, it wasn't Jack. It was the committee.
11 All this money was spent, and I've heard
12 thousands upon thousands of dollars, to create a
13 negative image of both of these questions. And the
14 people that support it -- and I'll identify me; I
15
supported the passage of both -- did not spend, to
16
my knowledge, the price of a cup of coffee. I
17
think we generally had some discussions. And I
18
think if anybody in this town spent the price of a
19
cup of coffee promoting these ballot questions, he
20
or she has been very under the radar.
21
MAYOR KUHN: That's hard to do, in Sanford.
22
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: The public, by majority
23
vote, passed the vote. The one other time I
24
remember this coming up, I had not been on th'e
25
commission a long time but I remember the vote,
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11 there was a movement to rezone Fort Mellon Park
21 back to Parks & Recreation, versus the commercial
3I status that it had.
4
And I remember
very well
the commissioner to my
5
left agreeing with
me that we
were not going to
61 override a majority vote of the will of the people,
7
because they, as a majority, had spoken, and they
8
had changed it to commercial and who was it of us
9
to change it back to Parks & Recreation? And I
10
think Art frankly supported the other side, but I
11
remember Velma and I and Linda -- and Randy, I
12
don't remember with you -- but we said, you know,
13
when the people have spoken by vote, by vote, then
14
we should respect that.
15
And, Art, I have immense respect for you; you
16
know I do, and you personally have this problem of
17
March versus general election. I understand that.
18
But unfortunately I'm a little bit older than you
19
are, and it certainly doesn't make me wiser, but I
20
happened to be here when we tried it and it really
21
was an experiment. And it worked -- Velma will
22
probably remember -- and it worked for a couple of
23
years, and then it got to be --- and I don't
24
understand. We have such a privilege in this
25
country to even vote, and it always makes me so sad
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1 when people don't, but to take five minutes to run
2 down to the civic center or wherever and vote in
3 the municipal election. "I don't have time for
4 that. I'm not interested in city politics."
5 And I remember Velma saying another thing.
6 She's tried to tell her people, your local leaders
7 have more of a direct impact on your life than the
8 President of the United States. Right, Velma?
9 I've never forgotten that.
10 Me, I consider it a sacrilege not to vote.
11 I've gotten out of bed to go vote. My wife is a
12 naturalized citizen; she would walk through 10
13 miles of broken glass to vote.
14 So, you know, I'm starting to get long winded,
15 which I'm known for, but I'm trying not to be. We
16 save thousands and thousands of dollars; we enact
17 legislatively the will of the people; it hopefully
18 diffuses the lawsuit. And obviously Mr. McIntosh,
19
Ms. Lippincott, and
Mr. Colbert cannot
guarantee
20
that, but I've been
to a few rodeos myself,
and I
21
won't guarantee it.
But I know this:
I can
22
negotiate a hell of
a lot better ftom a
position of
23
strength than a position
of weakneps.
I think the
24
Court loses subject
matter jurisdiction
if we do
25
it; we save a bunch
of money.
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11 And, you know what? Randy said this when we
2 went through all the stuff about the downtown
3 historic district and height restrictions and
4 colors and sidewalks, and I remember you sitting
5 there, and I think you'd just gotten bored and
61 said, "If we do this, 20 or 30 or 50 years from now
71 or next week, can't all of this be amended ?"
8 And everybody went, "Yeah, Commissioner
9 Jones."
10
Well, dudes, let's do it. And if this election
11
process doesn't work out and we still have voter_
12
turnout that just, excuse my bluntness, sucks,
13
we've tried it both ways. Then I'd be open for
14
suggestions as to what else we do.
15
But the last thing, and it just irritates me to
16
death, the work that committee put in. I'm glad I
17
didn't appoint me, because they worked their butts
18
off. And when the other side says, "Well, we don't
19
even care about that," you know, then how much do
20
they care about our town? How much.do they really
21
care about our town? They want to take a shot at
22
somebody, let them do it honestly and
23
appropriately.
24
So my time is up, your Honor. I rest.
25
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: May I ask a question?
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1
Did
you say if'this
city ordinance is
passed, you
2
don't
have to worry
about them being
concerned with
3
Amendment
Two? We
won't have to deal
with that?
4
Is
that what you're
saying?
One. Question Two can be
5
with
MR. COLBERT: Let me try to. answer it for you
6
this
way. I think
you were asking about
Amendment
7
Two
earlier.
case
may decide not
8
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES:
You
mean
Question Two?
9
MR. COLBERT: Yes, Question Two
on the ballot.
10
And my answer to you was
that if
we
go ahead and
11
adopt this ordinance, we've
taken
care
of Question
12
One. Question Two can be
dealt
with
at a later
13
time in several potential
ways.
And
one of those
14
is that the plaintiffs in
this
case
may decide not
15
to go any further in the
case,
and that
may mean
16
that Question Two doesn't
have
to be
voted on at a
17
later time because the election would stand.
18
If that doesn't happen, then the Commission, at
19
some time, could submit back to the people
the
20
issues that are involved in Question Two.
But we
21
would recommend multiple questions at that
,I
point..
22
And that could occur, you know, at some time-,when
23
the Commission says; not necessarily by a
special
24
election which would result in additional
cost to
25
the City, but it could happen at a; general
election
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1
when the election is being funded by the state and
2
the county.
3
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And are you saying that
4
voting on the city ordinance is the only way to
5
really deal with this?
6
MR. COLBERT: Well, I'm not saying --
7
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the best interests
8
of the City?
9
MR. COLBERT: It is what the legal team has
10
come and recommended to you. It is not the only
11
way to deal with it. I mean, you could choose not
12
to do this and the litigation would go forward.
13
There are choices.
14
But passing this is what the legal team has
15
recommended as a way to do what the Commission said
16
it wanted to do, as a way to do what the voters
17
approved, and what we believe is the most cost
18
effective use of the taxpayer dollars.
19
That's the best way for me to answer it. Does
20
it answer your question?
21
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well said. I thought
22
that was it.
23
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: All right. When this
24
first came to us, we had everything bundled in one
25
question. And I know I was adamantly opposed to it
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1
being in one question. So
when it came
back to us
2
in two questions, we spent
a long time,
I think two
3
hours, trying to re -word that question.
will
4
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
I remember
that night.
5
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF:
And I think
at the end
6
of that we were all satisfied that Question Number
71 One asked what needed to be asked and let people
8
know what
they
were
voting on.
Regardless
of
9
whether a
judge
will
say legally
it meets
the
10 requirements, we all thought it was clear and
11 people would know what we were talking about:
12 I still wanted more questions in Number !Two,
13 but thought that, you know, the things that were
141 being asked in that were so obvious as to being
151 useful things to accomplish that there wasn't going
X161 to be any opposition to it.
17 MAYOR KUHN: Boy, were you naive.
18 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Except I don't think
19 there's opposition to Two; there's opposition to
1 20 1 One.
21
And if we're worried, do
people know what
22
they're voting on, well, when
we wrote
the question
23
we thought we were writing it
in away
that they
24
would know what they were voting on.
And now', are
25
we second guessing ourselves,
that the
judge is
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1 going to say no?
2 MAYOR KUHN: That's what I'm saying, we're
3 assuming that they didn't know what they were
4 voting on. And I think it's wrong for us to make
5 that assumption.
6 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: What's legally right
7 isn't always, in my opinion, what's right. So I
8 don't think people were confused by the question.
9 MAYOR KUHN: I don't either.
10 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: I think people knew
11 what they were voting on.
12 MAYOR KUHN: The people I talked to all knew
13 what they were voting on.
14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would disagree.
15 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Let me finish.
16 Now, on Question Number Two, my guess is, most
17 people didn't know everything that was in there and
18 were voting based on trust, on that one. But on
19 Question Number One, I think people knew what they
20 were voting on.
21 And I was astounded that it passed and even
22 more so that it passed by a greater margin than
23 Number Two. But I'm pretty convinced that that is
24 the will of the people, and I will go along with
25 it. I do have a question about why we've got two
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1 proposed ordinances, one with the qualifying and
2 one without.
3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: May I just be
4 finished? I'll say that I've had several people
5 from all walks of life, okay, to say that they did
6 not understand all the ramifications in Number
-7 One. That's why I asked. And on that ballot, if I
8 remember correctly, it did not explain on the
9 ballot that it was extending our terms. And that's
10 what --
11 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: The transition.
12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The transition. And
13 that's what I'm saying that people were not aware.
14 They were voting for the election. And that's why
15 1 was saying that the question was not clear
16 enough. And I say that's what people were talking
17 about, in terms of Number One. In terms of whether
18 you want to change the election, that was clear.
19 But now, what are the ramifications for the
20 election being changed, that was not there.
21 Now, what we sent out to the people, you know,-
22 four days or five days before the election, you
23 see, it expounded on it there. Bud as far as the
24 ballot was concerned, it was not. It did not'. It
25 wasn't clear as to what that would entail.
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1 MR. McINTOSH: We think at final hearing
2 individuals will be called to testify that
3 substantiate exactly what you just said and will
4 bring the Court to the conclusion that Ballot
5 Question No. 1 is also in jeopardy by reason of
6 lack of explanation as to the transition period.
7 And that's why we're recommending to you this
8 legislation to fulfill the mandates of the people
9 who have voted.
10 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Can everybody please
11 recall, the legal test is a litmus, very, very well
12 defined, and then there's the practical side of
13 life. Somebody, former Chief Justice Rehnquist, I
14 think, said, "I can't give you a definition of
15 pornography, but if you show me a picture I'll tell
16 you whether or not it's dirty." Because, how do
171 you define pornography?
18 well, I. understand, Velma, your concern, but
19 how much do you educate, how much do you rely on
20 the voter? There was articles in the press; there
211 was flyers sent out. We can give a level and
22 assume that the voting public is dumb, or we can
23 assume that they're middle, or we can assume that
24 they're competent. And the vote was the vote.
25 One last thing. You're worried and expressed
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M.
1
expert over there
the concern, and I
hadn't
thought
about
it, Randy,
2
19
but what if we go
through
all this
and
the
3
ordinance doesn't
pass? I
really
hadn't
thought
4
about that. But I
think if
our consensus
today is
5
to put it out there,
the same
people
who
support
6
the consensus are
going to
support
the
passage. So
7
I think a decision
is almost
being
made
today, in
8
my humble opinion.
9 I'm not going to advocate, as I have this
10 afternoon. I'm not going to advocate doing the
11 ordinance and then turn around and vote against
12 it. I guess all things are possible. Our physics
1.3 expert --
141 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: I'm not giving up my
15 right to change my mind.
16 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Right. Our physics
17
expert over there
can probably correct me on
that,
18
but I can't, in a
reasonable thought process,
see
19
that if I support
it today„ I'm not going to
vote
201 for it tomorrow.
21 COMMISSIONER JONES: When we went through this
22 and we were presented with the final questions, you
23 will recall that I was against eveh moving it as a
24 ballot question. I wanted to have it pulled 'out
25 altogether as a change. And my reasons why I
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1 thought Sanford elections should stay Sanford
2 elections, they are important enough to not be
3 mixed in, more importantly, lost within the
4 ridiculousness of what goes on in the state and the
5 national elections. And those are my reasons.
6 I can expound on and on why it's better for the
7 City and why it's better for the individual person
8 who's running and all, but as I understand it,
9 Mr. McIntosh says that the other side will present
10 people who will say they were vastly and terribly
11 confused by it and didn't have any idea. But it
12 would seem like --
13 MAYOR KUHN: There was an awful lot that did
14 have an idea. .
15 COMMISSIONER JONES: It would seem like, number
16 one, the people need to be Limited to Sanford
17 voters; and number two, limited to people who
18 1 voted .
19 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Yeah.
20 COMMISSIONER JONES: So I'm back to my, you
21 know, when you look at the 1200 to 900.
22 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: So let's err on the side
23 of the majority. We can't go wrong.
24 COMMISSIONER JONES: Like I said, I could go --
25 I can write a paper for, and I can write a paper
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W
1
against.
2
COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Sure.
3
MAYOR KUHN: We could all do that. I think we
4
realize there's pros for doing it in March and cons
5
for doing it in March. There's pros for November
6
and there are cons for November.
7
COMMISSIONER JONES: But what I struggle with
8
is the result. And the resulting actions aren't
9
just whether I get an "A" or a "B" in the class;
10
it's a 55,000 person issue.
11
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Only 2,000 of them care
12
about it.
13
MAYOR KUHN: And I was going to say, only 1800
14
of them cared enough to show up and vote, or
15
however many it was, 2100.
16
MR. COLBERT: Just let me ask the commissioners
17
to speak one at a time for the court reporter.
18
We're starting to slide there. I'm not trying to
19
cut off the discussion; I'n} trying to keep the
20
record straight. That's all.
21
MAYOR KUHN: Well, I think we,could probably
22
spend the next three weeks hashing; this out. I
23
think we've been asked to answer a, question for our
24
legal counsel, and I think you know we've discussed
25
'it now for an hour and a half
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1 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Do we do it by vote or
2 consensus, or what do we do?
3 MR. COLBERT: We recommend the ordinance. And
4 I think we need a clear consensus one way or
5 another. I don't think you should necessarily vote
6 formally, but I think the mayor can poll each
7 commissioner, yes to the ordinance or no. And at
8 the end of that, we'll see what the consensus is.
9 We attorneys will be governed accordingly to go
10 forward.
11 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: My input is that we put
12 the ordinance on the agenda, the ordinance as
13 drafted by Ms. Lippincott and Mr. McIntosh, to
14 enact legislatively Ballot Question No. 1.
15 Is that sufficient, Bill?
16 MR. COLBERT: That's clear to me, yes.
17 COMMISSIONER JONES: Oh, my God, I understood
18 what you were saying, so.
19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll go around the
20 table?
21 MAYOR KUHN: Sure. Go around the table.
22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have reservations
23 about supporting the city ordinance.
24 MAYOR KUHN: Okay, so is that that you do not
25 want to proceed with a city ordinance?
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1
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. I have
2
reservations about it.
3
MAYOR KUHN: Art?
4
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: I say we do it. But I
5
hate to think you're depending on me for your third
6
vote.
7
MAYOR KUHN: Randy?
8
COMMISSIONER JONES: At this stage I'm willing
9
to say to move forward with the creation of the
10
ordinance or putting the ordinance on the agenda.
11
i
I'm probably going to go home and write my for and
12
against papers.
I
13
MAYOR KUHN: So you say.
14
COMMISSIONER JONES: I say move forward with
15
putting it on the agenda. But that does not
16
provide for an affirmative vote at this point in
17
time.
18
MAYOR KUHN: Well, I say move forward with
19
putting it on the agenda, but I'm going to put a
20
caveat to that. If it gets to the point that it
21
goes on the agenda and then it fails, I don't think
22
that speaks well of a consensus or'a -- but, you
23
know.
24
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: It also doesn't speak
25
well of our ability to take care of across the
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41 Z
1
street.
2
MAYOR KUHN: Or of our legal advisors. I have
3
real concerns about that. That's going make us
4
look awfully foolish. That's my two cents.
5
MR. COLBERT: Let me say this too. I
6
understand the consensus seems to be four to one to
7
put the ordinance on the agenda for consideration
8
at the next meeting, the ordinance being the one
9
that tracks the language of Ballot Question No. 1.
10
MAYOR KUHN: Mm-hm.
11
MR. COLBERT: Now, we are in attorney - client
12
session and we've been discussing the ordinance and
13
we've been discussing the litigation. When this is
14
on the agenda, the litigation is still pending.
15
MAYOR KUHN: Right.
16
MR. COLBERT: And we should not be discussing
17
the litigation in the public. I'm not suggesting
18
to the Commission how to vote. That's your
19
prerogative, and I respect that and would never
20
tell you how to vote. But I tell you that the
21
legislation needs to be considered publicly in a
22
sterile environment and not tainted with a
23
discussion of pending litigation, or it puts the
24
ordinance itself in jeopardy.
25
MAYOR KUHN: Right.
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1
MR.
COLBERT: And I
don't know
any other way to
2
say it,
and I trust the
Commission
understands what
3
I'm saying. I'm not directing you how to vote.
4
I'm not campaigning that you vote for it or against
5
it. I am saying if it is on the agenda, which
6
you're apparently wanting it to be, then you should
7
consider the legislation, which is what this is, in
8
a sterile environment and not taint it with a
9
discussion of the pending litigation. The
10
litigation will not be over until this -- after
11
this ordinance is adopted or fails.
12
MAYOR KUHN: Mm -hm.
13
MR. COLBERT: I do agree with the comment made
14
that if the ordinance does not pass, that it kind
15
of also looks interesting across the street, but I
16 don't have any control over that.
17 COMMISSIONER JONES: Could this ordinance be
18 construed as or be seen as memorializing the
19 results of Question One?
201 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: As what?
21 COMMISSIONER JONES: As. memorializing the
22 results of the election.
23 MAYOR KUHN : You mean affirming?
24 MR. COLBERT: Well, if the Commission --'and I
25 don't want to tell you -all what to say. But if the
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1 Commission acknowledges that there was an election
2 and that the majority of the people were in favor
3 of this, that's not as damning as a discussion of
4 the intricacies of the litigation is.
5 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: So what you're politely
6 saying is you're advising us a gag order; don't
7 discuss it, period?
8 MR. COLBERT: From a legal standpoint, I do not
9 want the consideration of the legislation tainted
10 by a discussion of pending litigation.
11 COMMISSIONER BRIDGES: Understood.
12 COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Well, when someone
13 comes to the podium during the public hearing and
3.4 says, why are you doing this, what does the mayor
15 say?
16 MAYOR KUHN: Mr. Colbert can address that, what
17 would the mayor say.
18 MR. COLBERT: Well, if the Commission's public
19 position is, the people voted for this and we're
20 trying to. If a commissioner believes it and says
21 that the people voted for this and I'm trying to
22 see that the will of the people is enacted as
23 quickly and as inexpensively as possible, that is
24 not discussing the litigation. But then if we try
25 to dissect the litigation and the questions and on
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1
and on, then I'm slowly twisting and the record is
2
being made.
3
MAYOR KUHN: And he sits next to me, and I can
4
feel him.
5
MR. COLBERT: And as we go across the street
6
that comes back to haunt us and weakens our case.
7
That's what I'm saying.
8
MR. McINTOSH: That buries me.
9
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: We're talking about the
10
one with the change in the qualifying date?
11
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
12
COMMISSIONER WOODRUFF: Basically everything
13
j
that was in the question?
14
MR. COLBERT: Everything that was in the
15
question.
16
I have the instructions from the Commission. I
17
appreciate your time and attention. It is pending
18
litigation. You should not be discussing what we
19
talked about when we leave Pere with anybody, other
20
than we discussed pending litigation that you're
21
not free to discuss until the litigation is over.
22
The materials that we handed o;ut we would like
23
you to put back in the envelope and hand back to us
24
because it's confidential information at this'point
25
in time. There will be a copy-of what was handed
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1
to you as part of the transcript, and it will be
2
available for the public's review at the end of the
3
litigation.
4
I would like all pieces that we handed to you
5
be returned. If you have something else, then
6
that's fine.
7
MAYOR KUHN: I have something else. Is this
8
now an opportunity for me?
9
MR. COLBERT: Yes. .Let me see if any member of
10
the legal team believes that we've left something
11
out. Are we okay?
12
MR. McINTOSH: Fine.
13
MR. COLBERT: Are we okay?
14
MS. LIPPINCOTT: Yes.
15
MR. COLBERT: All right. I have the materials.
16
We can conclude the formal closed door session. We
17
need to reconvene the public session, and I need to
18
say a couple of words then.
19
MAYOR KUHN: Okay. So it is now, what is it,
20
1:50. We'll reconvene the public session. The
21
doors are open. Mr. Colbert?
22
MR. COLBERT: I want to thank the commission
23
for their time and attention to our discussion of
24
pending litigation. We have received your input.
25
We will do our best effort to implement the
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1 directions of the Commission.
2 And our meeting lasted a little longer than I
3 anticipated it would; we've been in session about
4 an hour and 45 minutes, as opposed to the hour I
5 initially forecast. But I do appreciate your
6 discussion. It's been helpful. And this meeting
7 can be adjourned with the caveat that the court
8 reporter will make a transcript of this; it will be
9 sealed. At the conclusion of this pending
10 litigation it will be unsealed and be available for
11 any member of the public to review. And I thank
12 you.
13 MAYOR KUHN: Before we adjourn, I do want to
14 ask each one of the commissioners to take note of
15 the memorandum you were given from Mr. Poulalion.
16 We can't discuss at this point in time. We will
17 need to have a work session. But, please, this is
18 of utmost importance. If you have any questions,
19 Mr. Poulalion is available., We will need to make a
20 decision very shortly. The meeting is now
21 adjourned.
22 (Thereupon, the session was concluded at,
23 1:54 p.m.)
24
25
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E00514441DW
MINUTES
Special Meeting September 26, 2008
City Commission, Sanford, Florida
74
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21 STATE OF FLORIDA
C E R T I F I C A T E
31 COUNTY OF SEMINOLE
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5 I, JULIE EVANS, COURT REPORTER, certify that I
6 was authorized to and did stenographically report the
7 foregoing proceedings; and that the transcript is a true
8 and complete record of my stenographic notes.
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101 I further certify that I am not a relative,
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employee,
attorney,
or counsel
of any of the parties,
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nor am I a
relative
or employee
of any of the parties'
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attorneys
or counsel
connected
with the action, nor am I
141 financially interested in the action.
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161 Dated this 7th day of October, 2008.
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JULIE EVANS, SSR
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SEMINOLE REPORTING,,-INC.
407- 831 -6400