Executive Session 01-26-2000u
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BEFORE THE CITY OF SANFORD CITY COMMISSION
In re: Executive Session, Attorney- Client
Session, January 26, 2000 - 4:00 p.m.
REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS before the City of
Sanford City Commission, on Wednesday, January 26,
2000, City Manager's Conference Room, Sanford City
Hall, 300 North Park Avenue, Sanford, Seminole
County, Florida, commencing at or about 4:00 p. m.,
pursuant to Notice herein, the Honorable LARRY A.
DALE, Mayor, presiding.
Commissioners present: HERBERT "WHITEY"
ECKSTEIN, BRADY LESSARD, VELMA H. WILLIAMS and A. A.
McCLANAHAN:.
Also present: TONY VAN DERWORP, City Manager.
APPEARANCES:
WILLIAM L. COLBERT, Esquire, City Attorney and
CATHERINE D. REISCHMANN, Esquire, Assistant City
Attorney.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. We're going to
call the meeting to order. The purpose of this
meeting, Bill, is an Executive Session that you've
requested And I'm going to turn it over to you to
lead us.
MR. COLBERT: Thank you, Mayor. The suit that
we're going to talk about today some people are
calling the Metts suit; but it is really styled
DeSantis and others, versus the City of Sanford.
There are two suits pending in Court.
And last week we got served with the last
Complaint; and I immediately then wrote to the
Mayor and asked for an Attorney - Client Session; and
then I renewed that request verbally at the City
Commission Meeting on Monday.
And what I want to do in this Session is to go
into the Attorney- Client Session and brief you all
on the case; and have some discussion about some
strategy and ways to control costs and potential
ways to resolve the case.
Mrs. Reischmann and I are both working on the
case. I expect this Session to last about an hour
to an hour and a half, depending upon how much
discussion we have.
And then at the end of that we can open up
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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again and adjourn the meeting.
But are there any questions of me while we are
in the public part of this?
If not, Mayor, we can, then, go into the
Attorney - Client Session and close the doors.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. We will, then,
close the public session and go into the Attorney -
Client Session.
(Thereupon the following proceedings were had
in Executive Session:)
MR. COLBERT: I didn't introduce him a moment
ago, but Mr. Curtis Ellerbe is in the room. And he
is a Court Reporter. And I would like to review
with the Commission and on the record that before we
get into these very far, this will be familiar to
you; but I would like to review the Statute for
just a moment.
We are in an Attorney- Client Session; and it
is permitted under Chapter 286.011 of the Florida
Statutes.
Some people say this is outside the Sunshine;
but it is not.
I like to refer to this as a "Delayed
Broadcast."
All this is, is a meeting for which the entire
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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substance of this meeting will be taken down by Mr.
Ellerbe.
It will be transcribed and put in a transcript;
and at the conclusion of this litigation the entire
transcript will be made available to the public.
I say this, one, to remind the Commission that
we are on the record.
And, two, so that the public, when they read
this, will have confidence that they are seeing and
hearing this just as if they were here.
They are just seeing it and hearing it at a
later time.
The things that we can discuss under this
provision of the law are pending litigation... that
is why we had to wait until the actual suit was
filed to ask for it.
And we have to talk about things relating to
settlement or strategy as to containing costs of the
litigation.
I am going to get into that in a couple of
minutes. I think it is important for the Commission
to understand what has been filed against the City.
And I am going to review that briefly with you
for a couple of minutes, what is actually filed,
what the legal process is.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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And I want to tell you a couple of the City's
options; and then I want to open it up to questions
from the Members of the Commission if you have
questions of us.
And then I need some consensus from you of
where we want to go.
And then when we're through with that we can
adjourn the meeting; but that's really what this is
about.
There are two actions that have been filed
against the City.
First of all, there is a Complaint called a
Petition for a Writ Certiorari.
And that is filed by Mr. DeSantis and others
against the City of Sanford.
And what that really is, is the - -the action
says that you were sitting as a City Commission in
your quasi - judicial capacity. And you made a
decision concerning the granting of a dimensional
variance.
That is, the parking variance, that related to
the, what some people refer to as the Soup Kitchen;
but it was an application by Seminole Voluntary
Enterprises to operate a restaurant under the City
Code.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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And you granted them a variance; and what
this Petition basically tells the Court or suggests
to the Court is that you did not follow the
essential requirements of law.
They say that there were only certain things
that you could consider in that variance; and that
there was not enough evidence to support that
decision; and, therefore, the Court should reverse
that decision and, in essence, remand it back to you
and tell you that you cannot grant the variance.
If they prevail on that, that is what would
occur.
We're not saying they would prevail on that. I
just want you to understand what it is. It is a
review of your quasi - judicial decision that will be
the three -judge panel, three Circuit Judges will
look at the record. Look at whatever briefs we file
and whatever briefs the other side files.
They will give deference to the City, but they
will ultimately decide whether or not there was a
basis for the Commission to make that decision.
If they decide there was a basis for the
decision, the decision will stand.
If they decide that there was no basis, then
they will reverse and tell you that you cannot grant
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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the variance.
The other action is a Verified Complaint. And
it is an action that asks for what is called
Declaratory and Injunctive Relief.
And this case is assigned right now to Judge
Stephenson. Whether he will remain in the case or
not, I'm not certain.
Because he lives in the City of Sanford on Park
Avenue, down about Seventeenth or Eighteenth Street.
And there is a suggestion by some that perhaps he
should not hear it because he resides in the City
and some other Judge should hear it.
We're not to that point. But this was just
filed in the last week or so. And that will be
decided at a later time.
But what is alleged here is ... is similar. But
the review is different.
On the certiorari, a three -judge panel will
look and see if in their opinion the City departed
from the essential requirements of the law.
In this Verified Complaint they're asking for
basically a new trial before the Judge, for Judge
Stephenson to decide whether or not this action by
the City was a Development Order; and if so, if the
actions of the City were consistent or inconsistent
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford. FL 32772 -1422
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with the current Comprehensive Plan and the Land
Development Regulations.
The allegation is that the Land Development
Regulations required the City to consider what the
Land Development Regulations were.
The Land Development Regulations require
offstreet parking for a restaurant, unless a
variance is given.
And then it goes back to argue that those
elements for granting as variance weren't present,
including the Planning and Zoning Commission
recommended against it.
The Staff recommended against it; and
notwithstanding that the Commission approved it.
The Commission shouldn't have, the argument goes.
And that would be, rather than a review, that
would be another trial in front of Judge Stephenson,
who, if he agreed with that, could issue a permanent
injunction and say that the variance could not be
given, that it is inconsistent with the Plan; and
that the restaurant could not operate.
For these actions to take their full course, if
we took the full course, we could be involved in the
certiorari for six months to more than a year.
I've seen them take a year and a half to two
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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years to get that far.
The Declaratory and Injunctive Relief Section,
under the Verified Complaint, a year or more is not
unusual.
I'm not saying it needs to go that long but it
could.
So, those are the two things filed against the
City. And I know I'm rolling out a lot of
information for you, but you are the decision
makers; and you need to have this information, as
we discuss this and as you make a decision.
Right now one of the important players is not
in the lawsuit. They are not at the table. And
that is the Seminole Volunteer Enterprises, Mrs.
Metts' group.
They are not parties attendant. Right now it's
the City of Sanford and the Plaintiffs in this case,
the seven residents.
As I understand it, the restaurant is set to
open around the fourteenth of February. That is an
announced date.
And as I understand it there was discussion
about whether or not Mrs. Metts would be willing to
delay the opening of her restaurant, whether or not
she would be willing to join in the defense of this
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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with the City.
Because it does affect
It is my understanding that
would not delay the opening
now there has been no attor
take the case on a pro bono
free.
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their right to operate.
she, her position is she
voluntarily. And right
aey who has agreed to
basis, that is, for
Therefore, they do not have counsel at this
time. They may or may not have counsel later.
So, getting to the point of where we go from
here, I think that from a legal standpoint, I've
already told you, it can take some time for this
case to wind its way through.
It seems to me at least that it would be
important to have all of the parties involved in
this, that is, Mrs. Metts' organization should be
involved in it.
And I think that it is ... that it is likely that
the Plaintiffs are going to soon attempt to join
Mrs. Metts' group as a Defendant in this case.
They would have to do that or the City would
have to do that.
I think they are going to do that soon. At
least that's the information that I have.
It seems to me that one way to help the City
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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contain costs; and one way for this perhaps to be
resolved quicker and at least at less expense to the
City, would be if we, the City, either do not oppose
• temporary injunction or agree that the Court issue
• temporary injunction that would delay the opening
of the restaurant.
And also, ag
be diverted early
parties, assuming
And then sit
discussion to see
both of the other
Mrs. Metts.
ree that perhaps this matter could
to a mediation with all three
that they are in it.
down and try to have some
if there is some way to satisfy
sides, that is, the residents and
And I'm not sure what that might be. That
would be partially a mediator's job; but some of
the possibilities, to me, would be the potential of
the preparation of the food on premises and serving
it somewhere else.
Another possibility would be if they are able
to provide some parking through the railroad or some
other means, reducing the capacity by agreement to
fit whatever that parking is.
Or some other mechanism that would be
acceptable to the three parties. And I keep saying
the three parties.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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That would be that group, the Plaintiffs and
the City involved in this case.
At least it seems to me that it is perhaps
worth some effort to try to see if that can be
accomplished.
And if it can be accomplished, it could short -
circuit and make moot this long -term legal battle
that I'm talking about.
If the attempt at mediation does not resolve in
some type of settlement - -any type of settlement
would have to be approved by the Commission - -but
assume for a moment that it did not result in a
settlement, then the City could come back, we could
have another meeting; we could decide whether to
try to limit the procedure by trying to agree to a
stipulated set of facts and then try to get the
Court to decide the case based on a stipulated set
of facts, versus a discovery and depositions and
that type of thing or rather to go to a full -blown
trial.
So it seems to me that our options are to go
full -bore right now, which I don't necessarily
believe is in the City's interest or the public's
interest.
Or to try to take some method to short - circuit
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford. Fl 32772 -1422
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the proceedings and see if a resolution can be done.
And if not, to go from there. Now, there are a
couple of questions that perhaps could come up that
I might try to answer before they come up.
One is, well, Could the City simply at this
time reverse itself and decide to give - -to deny the
variance?
To me, that presents the problem of satisfying
one group and opening ourselves, the City, to a
lawsuit by the other group.
I don't think that is a viable option at this
particular point in time.
Another question would be What about the
potential of not defending? not ... not participating
and just letting the Court do what it wants to?
Well, there are two problems legally with that.
One is that if we don't defend we potentially open
the City to bad -faith and attorneys' fees arguments.
And the other is that it is probably at lease
arguably an invitation to others if they don't like
a decision the City makes, just sue them and the
City rolls over.
So, I mean there are several reasons that those
are not, from a lawyer's standpoint, particularly
attractive to do.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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But the five of you are our clients; and we
need to understand where you want us to go and how
you want us to handle it and where we go from here,
which is the whole reason that I asked for this
Attorney- Client Session.
Having said all of that, I think, unless Mrs.
Reischmann wants to add something or the City
Manager wants to add something; and if they do,
this would be the opportunity to do it; but if they
don't, I would like for the Commission, if you have
questions you would like to ask us, to be able to
ask us those questions.
And then give us your input to what I've said
and where you believe you would like us to go and
how you would like us to proceed from this point.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What is this thing likely
to cost us if we go the route you say we're - -the
full circle, as you say?
MR. COLBERT: If we go the full circle we've
got two lawsuits that have to be dealt with.
We are paid by the hour. And it is ... it is
hard to say how many hours we would spend when you
get into litigation.
I like to say Sometimes it's like a chess
match. You have to ... you have to move and then wait
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford. FL 32772 -1422
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for the other side to move.
And depending on what they do, then you have to
decide where to go.
It could easily cost twenty, thirty, forty
thousand dollars... could easily cost that over the
next couple of years to go through that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, you know- -
MR. COLBERT: Mediation, an attempt at
mediation... and if that is successful, we could be
through with this in a couple of months at quite a
bit less cost.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If Jean Metts and
Volunteers.... Seminole Volunteer Enterprises agrees,
there is nothing that we could do to agree to at
mediation, that if she disagrees with- -
MR. COLBERT: That's right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -that would work.
MR. COLBERT: That is correct.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Have you talked to Jean
Metts since our meeting where we instructed you to?
and what was her response?
MR. VAN DERWORP: Well, as Bill already
mentioned, I talked to Jean on the twentieth at 3:30
in the afternoon.
He mentioned already that she does not have
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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funds to assist the City with attorneys' fees at
this point in time.
And that she also is intending to open on the
fourteenth or whatever the date was there.
With respect to settlement, I asked her if she
had thought about anything that might work in a
settlement or mediation environment.
And she told me that the only thing that would
probably work for the other side was to not serve
meals at all.
And she is not willing to do that. And that,
however, she is willing to make progress with
respect to trying to get the railroad right -of -way
for some parking spaces.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she's tried to do
that; and others have tried.
TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I don't know if
you've ever dealt with the railroad. I would assume
that you have.
TONY VAN DERWORP: I have.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: In some capacity with the
County. And it is about like dealing with the devil
himself.
TONY VAN DERWORP: I would be very surprised if
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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the railroad gave her permission to use their
property without outright purchase of it.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I would, too.
TONY VAN DERWORP: It is a liability which
they don't want to --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It is her attitude. She
is bound and determined. Someone on the other side,
I understand, asked her if she would delay opening.
And she said, "No, under no circumstances will
I delay opening." Okay. So, if she, if there is no
desire in her to mediate with us, are we not wasting
our time? I mean we have already talked to her
about it.
If we go talk to her again, you might as well
say the same thing.
MR. COLBERT: Well, I understand your question.
And the answer is Without an agreement from her
mediation would not, you know, be productive.
What I'm talking about, though, would be a
temporary injunction being probably issued by the
Court doesn't oppose it or agrees to it, which would
preserve the status quo, while that organization is
brought in as a party instead of a bystander.
And then under a court- ordered mediation with a
court - appointed mediator, have a discussion and see
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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IN
if something can be done which satisfies all
parties, including the City of Sanford; and if that
happens, it's a moot point.
If that is not successful, we have, through
that exercise at least helped isolate the City from
a potential claim by Mrs. Metts' organization later
if the case does not go their way.
So, there are several benefits to doing that
scenario.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let me be sure I
understand what you just said.
Are you telling me that if we lose this lawsuit
she could then turn around and sue us for damages
because we lost the lawsuit?
MR. COLBERT: I'm not saying- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because she couldn't
open?
MR. COLBERT: I'm not saying that she could
prevail on a suit against the City if the lawsuit is
not won.
But I am concerned that if the lawsuit is not
defended to avoid - -of a judicial decision versus
inaction or less than good -faith action by the City,
that there could be some exposure.
And so, bringing them in, attempting mediation,
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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trying to resolve it and either resolving it or not
provides some benefit to the City and the taxpayers,
in my opinion.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And until we get to the
point where she is willing to, well, if she's
willing - -if he gets named in, this is all going to
be on the taxpayers' nickel?
MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So she wants us to defend
it vigorously.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: At no cost to her.
MR. COLBERT: Well, I haven't talked to her,
but I mean- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Is that right, Tony?
TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, she has no funds to
assist us in this lawsuit at this point.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she is possibly a
defendant, but she is not willing to go into a
defense, even though it benefits her.
And if she refuses to mediate, which it sounds
to me like she is, then the costs are going to be on
the taxpayers all the way through this, maybe up to
your cycle - -Now, if they grant the injunction, which
I feel they probably will, then that would be done
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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fairly soon.
That is not going to take two years to go to
this injunction- -
MR. COLBERT: No, that would be done, if it's
going to occur, between now and the fourteenth of
February.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Will that injunction
remain in effect until this thing is settled, then,
do you think?
MR. COLBERT: It will remain in effect until
either the case is over or the Court finds a reason
for lifting the injunction.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And if they qrant the
injunction and she operates as a restaurant in the
meantime -- Because I know she has operated several
times already and has not pulled an occupational
license.
MR. COLBERT: Well, the injunction, if it is,
you know, we would have to see it to understand it
totally, but if it played the way I perceive it to
be played, the injunction would in effect prohibit
the operation of those premises as a restaurant.
If they are a party to that suit, the Court has
jurisdiction over them. And then if the court order
is disobeyed, the penalty is contempt of court, for
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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which the Court can impose penalties.
That is, a daily fine or whatever, until the
contempt is cured, the ceasing of operation.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let me ask you
this: Would they have to name her as an additional
party, a decision, our decision against her - -so they
don't have to name her as an additional party to
have an injunction, do they?
MR. COLBERT: Well, the City is the only party
Defendant right now. And there is a request for an
injunction against the City.
If the injunction is granted against the City,
there is a question in my mind of What is the City
supposed to do to keep them from operating as a
restaurant?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I would assume we're
supposed to say We're under a court order not to let
you open.
MR. COLBERT: Well, we would.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And it would be up to our
Code Enforcement people to stop her from doing it.
MR. COLBERT: But I'm not, yes, I understand
what you're saying. I'm not sure that the best
posture would be for the City to be the Court's
enforcement arm.
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I would ... I would be more comfortable if they
were a party and they were subject to the
jurisdiction of the Court and they were responsible
for any violation of the Court Order.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Mike Jones is not
your average thinking Attorney.
MR. COLBERT: I understand.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And he's a bulldog. And
he loves to do these things.
MR. COLBERT: Well, I understand.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And another thing, he
does it at his own expense.
MR. COLBERT: I have worked with Mr. Jones and
on the other side for about, almost thirty years.
I remember when he came to Seminole County, just
shortly after I did. I enjoy working with him
sometimes and against him sometimes; and he is a
good lawyer and a good person, and very, very
bulldogish.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, he is.
MR. COLBERT: And fun to litigate with. But
I'm not sure I ought to have that much fun at the
City's expense, so I try to figure out a way to
short - circuit that a little bit.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But I mean if Metts is
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named in this thing, she is still not, probably not
going to hire legal counsel, unless she can get pro
bono.
And I know for a fact she has tried hard to do
that through the Central Florida Legal Aid Society,
because they have made many calls to attorneys, who
have called me.
MR. COLBERT: And a number have called me.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Right. And none of them
are willing to take the case.
MR. COLBERT: I understand.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So far. That I know of.
So, what if they name her and she still doesn't have
legal counsel?
MR. COLBERT: Well, if they name that
organization --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -and protect her and the
company and individually, too, at the taxpayers'
expense?
MR. COLBERT: No, it's not incumbent on the
City to do that, if that was your question.
If they name that organization, they have an
obligation to defend or respond to the Court.
If they do not, the Court could basically enter
what is called a default against them on the time
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the answer is due to the Verified Complaint and
those types of things.
And the Court could go on and adjudicate rights
that affect them without further participation on
their part.
But they would be bound by the decision.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The fact that some of
these firms have called me and had rather pointed
questions make me tend to think that they feel that
it is not a very defensive position on it.
What do you think the chances of this
injunction being entered are?
MR. COLBERT: I think the chances of an
injunction being granted are fairly good. What an
injunction would do would be to preserve the status
quo, while the case goes on to some kind of
conclusion.
And it is not unusual for a court to grant a
temporary injunction and then go forward and decide
on the merits of the case.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: Well, if the
railroad said today that she could have the parking
that would not stop this suit.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, it would have to be
mediated to the standpoint that, you know, that
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might enter into mediation- -
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: This suit has not
been brought because they didn't have the parking
authority.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Bill, I think you should
comment on that, because, Mac, that's what the case
was about.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: No, wait, let me
finish, then, okay?
The case, that cited a negative reaction to
property values; and all of those different things;
and it has not - -if, if we had had the railroad
parking there we would have still been challenged by
this group of people.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: We don't know that.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: I really believe
that. Well, that's my personal opinion.
Because that is not the ... that is not the
problem... is not parking that is causing the suit.
Now, we know, that. Larry, think about it.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, no, Mac, I read the
suit; and it clearly cites the fact that we have
granted this waiver or this variance and that we did
it illegally.
That's what the suit is about.
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That is what you can sink your teeth into. I
can tell you, if the CSX parking had been there it
would have made a big difference in how I thought
about it, going into that public hearing, and on the
merits ... and I based my decision based on that.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: But you- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But my decision was based
a hundred percent on the fact of the Land
Development Regulations and the fact that we, not
only did we give it a variance, we waived it
completely.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: But why can a
restaurant, then, in the same SC -3 District on First
Street take a building that was never a restaurant
and become a restaurant; and there has never been a
question; and it has never come before us?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because our Codes allow
that to happen in a SC -3 District, where we have
designated parking and a building that is less than
a thousand square feet.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: That doesn't even
make any sense.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's what our
Codes allow. Our Code allows that.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: It doesn't make any
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sense to me.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Those things meet our
Code. I mean we --
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: It makes no sense at
all.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I mean, you know, I asked
Are we going to designate parking for this? And we
said No, we're just going to let them park - -We
didn't designate - -There is no City- designated
parking for this or any other use in that area.
There is no set -aside public parking for it.
And there is no set -aside private parking for it.
And that's what this case- -
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: Well, there is
public parking around the place.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let's ask Bill and
Katie. I don't think we're going to be able to go
in there with a defense that this case is really
about some other thing, property values, this, that
and the other, when they have cited specifically
those six issues in that variance in our Code, that
that is the true merit of the case that is going to
be tried.
MR. COLBERT: If, let me try to answer it this
way.
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And I'm here to give you advice and answer your
questions; and I'll try to do that: If they were
able to get parking sufficient to meet the city
Code, after the fact, that by itself would not stop
the lawsuit.
But if they could provide the parking, the
Court - -and it could be shown - -there would be a
likelihood, in my opinion, that the case may be sent
back to the City to take further evidence and
testimony and see if the parking could be provided.
And let the City have another opportunity to
grant the variance or not.
As to what Commissioner McCLANAHAN: just said a
couple of moments ago, that ... that that, if they had
the parking it wouldn't stop the lawsuit.
It wouldn't stop it from that regard; but if
it came back to the City and we went through it and
if the City either granted or denied the variance,
then either side would have a chance to have another
appeal, based on the new decision.
And the property owners surrounding it may
choose something else to argue at that point.
And I can't --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But's that a big if.
You've got to --
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MR. COLBERT: I can't handle that or deal with
that, but I can --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You can't defend it based
on what -if after this, that was- -
MR. COLBERT: No, it's not anything like that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I have dealt with CSX
for thirty years, and I doubt very seriously if
anybody is going to get them to let her just use
that for parking.
And she has already said she has no money to
even lease it from them.
MR. COLBERT: Well, the suit right now pretty
well --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think that is a moot
point for us to consider here, whatever CSX does,
whether CSX does anything.
MR. COLBERT: The case right now is pretty much
pending on the granting of the variance by the City
relating to the parking. And it's ... if the parking
issue goes away, it would take quite an amendment to
these pleadings for them to still be in court.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I agree with you. I
think if the parking issue went away they would have
a whole lot less sting in their lawsuit.
But I don't see that happening. And I don't
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think we can defend it, based on, well, I just don't
think it's going to happen.
MS. REISCHMANN: I just wanted to add that we
do have two separate lawsuits that are very
different and have very different facts and very
different allegations, although they seem like they
are similar.
So it is ... just so we don't get confused about
what we're talking about.
And I think the action where they are seeking a
trial, they do mix it up a lot; and they talk about
the issues of putting a non - residential use next to
residential use.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, they talk about it,
sure, they've gone through as many points as they
could.
MS. REISCHMANN: And they are totally- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Sure they have and they
have also talked about decreased property values.
MS. REISCHMANN: And at trial --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But a smart Attorney
like Mike Jones is going to say the reason the
property value is decreased, not just based on the
merits of the non - residential use; the fact that
there is no parking. And they're going to be
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parking all over our places.
MS. REISCHMANN: But that's what they've got to
focus on. And I think they've gone way beyond that.
And I think that the appellate action, the
certiorari action is the one that really would be
difficult.
The other one would be much more expensive;
but it is a battle of the experts.
And usually when you have a battle of the
experts, when you've got the burden of proof in your
favor you win.
So, they are two different kinds of cases.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Velma, you acted like
you wanted to say something?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I have a
response, but I just wanted to make a statement with
reference to something.
I think it was along the lines of what
Commissioner McClanahan makes reference to.
I realize what is there. And if that is the
most important thing and the reason for which they
are filing the lawsuit - -I would like to ask a
question regarding the things that I heard during
the City Commission Meeting and the statements that
have been made in the paper.
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Which they didn't mention anything more than
just, just the parking, also; but I - -And so, does
that come into play at any point?
Even though, as I said, and they are stating
here; and they have, you know, they don't say that
there specifically; but they're talking about the
crime, they talk about me, they talk about - -There
are a lot of things they talk about in terms of the
property value and the crime and all of those kind
of things. And some of them actually say, you know,
it has nothing to do with parking.
It's the crime, it's the kind of people who are
there, all of those kinds of things. Although I'm
saying that that, the lawsuit does not state that.
It states, it gives another reason.
But those things have actually been stated.
MR. COLBERT: Well, the Court is not going to
be persuaded or permit things that have been said
outside this lawsuit to be considered as evidence.
And if people have been quoted in the paper or
if they've been, you know, written letters to
editors of if they made other statements not in
connection with this lawsuit and not part of the
record, the Court isn't going to get into that
aspect of it.
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I could see that if we go under the Verified
Complaint and what has been referred to earlier as
kind of a shotgun approach, I could see, you know,
in a trial de novo, where some evidence may be
proffered to the Court about property values or
other things as it relates to the Development Order
and the effect on these folks.
We would be trying to contain or eliminate
that. And I don't know where the Court would come
from in that aspect of it.
So, I guess I've just given you a lawyer -like
answer, but that is probably what my job is.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Another question I'm
going to ask for clarification purposes, lack of
knowing about this aspect, a question about, you
know, boundary lines, you know, there are
restaurants, there are a couple of clubs; and they
don't have their own parking.
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. And they are in
the same, I guess, zone. So, how does that differ?
How is that different?
MR. COLBERT: Well, you know, one of our
arguments is that - -that too is, again, a lawyer -
like answer.
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But there are restaurants, too, in the downtown
area that don't have parking.
And we will present, should we need to, some of
that to the Court for the Court also to consider.
The City had an ordinance that relates to the
direct downtown area and recognizes the lack of
parking in the downtown area.
And it either provides an eight hundred or a
thousand -foot distance requirement like to public
parking, a parking lot or something.
And if the business is within that distance, my
recollection is that, that by action of the
Commission previously, those parking places are
considered and counted that people can access the
restaurants through the use of public parking.
So that cuts both ways.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that particular
restaurant, where she is located is not considered
downtown. It is just a commercial- -
MR. COLBERT: It is not within that distance- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If it is not within the
provisions of that ordinance, then, the Land
Development Regulations, you know, ordinance,
distance --
MR. COLBERT: It is not within a public parking
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lot, yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: is not within that
distance.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's in the SC -3
Zone, but it's not in the area where - -See, we had
designated parking downtown at public, we have
designated public parking for those businesses in
the downtown area, on all the parking lots, as well
as on- street parking.
But we haven't done that within eight hundred
feet of the building that she has.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The downtown district.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Right. It doesn't fall
within the parameter - -and that's going to be their
argument before the Judge, see.
That does not apply to this.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I question, though- -
MR. COLBERT: And we don't have to fall on our
sword and say, you know, you lose because of that;
but there are some arguments that we make to relate
it to the downtown area; but in truth and in fact
the City has treated them differently and recognized
it differently in an ordinance; and has not
designated something where that one is.
And that is a legal distinction that the Court
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can and probably will recognize.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Another question
is, okay, when, as a City Commissioner, okay, what
are some of the factors that I should consider when
contemplating a variance for someone?
MR. COLBERT: Okay. When you are contemplating
a variance, the City already has rules in effect of
when a variance can be granted.
And those are ... those relate to whatever kind
of variance there is.
In other words, there are dimensional
variances, there are other kind of variances.
And the City Code sets those out. What we're
looking at here is what is called a dimensional
variance.
And the six elements are whether or not special
circumstances exist on this particular piece of
property.
Special conditions and circumstances that are
not the action of the applicant.
In other words, the applicant has not created a
hardship themself.
Whether the granting of that variance will
confer any special benefit...
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To the individual or to
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the agency?
MR. COLBERT: To the applicant, whoever that
is.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. COLBERT: In this case it would be Seminole
Enterprises or whatever.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Or to the property.
MR. COLBERT: Yes. Whether the literal
interpretation of the ordinance would deprive the
applicant of rights normally enjoyed by others.
Whether the variance is the minimum variance
required to accomplish what they need.
And whether the variance would be in harmony
with the surrounding area- -
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The surrounding area
being a lot of warehouses, for example, there are
warehouses and that type of thing around this
particular area.
MR. COLBERT: Well, there is --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or are you talking
about the whole historic district? Are you talking
about the whole, the entire historic district?
MR. COLBERT: The harmony really talked about
in the ordinance is the harmony with the general
intent and purpose of the ordinance.
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WV
But you look at an area and you look at the
surrounding area. I don't think there are any
different standards that really set it out
But out there you have kind of a mixed area
that includes residences; it includes the, well,
the Jaycee Park about a block away.
It includes some warehouses and a railroad.
But it's a mixed area. It is not one particular
thing
Those elements relate to a dimensional
variance.
There are other elements that relate to other
variances.
And actually, to answer your question, I was
looking back at the Complaint, because they were
gracious enough to list those in the Complaint.
There are some things that we as City Attorneys
can argue against each of those.
The Court will be asked to decide whether these
elements existed or not when it makes its decision.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: May I see the Complaint?
MR. COLBERT: Sure. There are things that are
highlighted.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because you remember,
every meeting you kept saying, you know, "I don't
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want to do anything illegal."
And I'm not saying this is illegal. And I kept
saying You need to --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understood what you
said. I know what the six were.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Each one of them, one
through six- -
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know what the six
were.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Right. But we didn't- -
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I know what the
six were. I'm asking the Attorney, I'm asking for
clarification, not because I don't understand it.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But there are other
elements- -
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's something I can
understand.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There are other elements
in the Complaint that now there is a lawsuit, I
guess.
That they - -Where is that? Or there are other
allegations that they're talking about.
They're talking about some of our Comp, our
Comprehensive Plan requirements that requires, you
know, people to meet the Land Development
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Regulations.
Talking about the traffic, you know,
circulation requirements, a minimum automobile
offstreet parking requirements, the six guidelines
that we should have gone by when we granted the
variance.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me ask you this:
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: These are the six
guidelines that we should have gone by? Are those,
can some of those relate back to a subjective
standpoint as opposed to, you know, you have to have
concrete evidence ... you know, concrete evidence
that, number one, this does exist, that doesn't
exist?
Number two, it does or it doesn't, it can kind
of be subjective in terms of who is looking at it?
in terms of, you know, what your mindset is or what
you bring to that?
Or what you think about where it's located or
what is surrounding it, that type of thing?
MR. COLBERT: Well, there needs to be some
evidence in the record from which the Commission can
draw the conclusion that each of those elements are
met.
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That does not mean, to your words, that it has
to be in concrete, where ... where you hold out the
list and you hold out things and you say It meets
this, it meets this, it meets this ... it meets this.
You don't have to go through that detail and
exercise to come to that conclusion.
But as Lawyers, the clearer it is, the easier
our job is to defend you.
Our job in defending this suit is to go back
now through the record and find elements which we
can in good faith say to the Judge meet these
requirements.
And we think there are some there. We wish
they were clearer and more in concrete.
But you do that in every case.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. COLBERT: You know, when you sit and have
twenty- twenty hindsight you say, well, you know, it
would have been nice if this had happened or that
had happened or the other.
But we're not here saying that we cannot defend
this case or that we will not defend this case or
that we will absolutely lose the case.
We are saying it's difficult, number one.
Number two, it is probably going to take a long
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Number three, right now all the parties are not
in it.
And we're asking if ... if you want us to see
about facilitating a temporary injunction and try
and get the parties together and try and get it
resolved and short - circuit it. I don't know why
that got stumbled there.
But - -And try to get it resolved and move on.
And I don't know that it will get resolved.
But it is probably worth the effort to do that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One more question.
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In reference to Ms.
Metts: Somebody has reached a conclusion that, that
she is not willing to mediate or something.
Somebody has reached that conclusion. And I
think I heard you say, well, you have not talked to
her; so you don't know whether she is willing or
not.
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would it be
inappropriate or illegal, you know, for you to talk,
to go see her and talk with her and see if she would
be willing to mediate, you know, engage in the legal
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issues?
MR. COLBERT: As long as she is not represented
by counsel it is legal for me to talk to her.
If she ever gets counsel then I cannot talk to
her at all.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, I was just
wondering.
MR. COLBERT: The City Manager has already done
that; and he already has her answer. I doubt that
I could charm her anymore than he could and get a
different answer from her.
But to answer your question, we could do that.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I was just
thinking, as an Attorney, you know, sometimes
understanding what the ramifications are, looking at
the advantages and disadvantages sometimes... just a
thought I had.
MR. COLBERT: Well, if she says No, we're right
back to where we are today, and that is --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she has said No, to
my understanding.
Here is what we did at the last meeting that we
discussed this, took official action:
Number one, we denied the allegations.
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: On a three -two vote. So
that this would be filed as a lawsuit so we could
get to this point.
And number two, we authorized the City Manager
to go have discussions with her to see if she would -
--I forget how it was worded in the minutes - -join
with us in the defense.
TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Tony has done that. She
has said...?
TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, she said at this time
she has no funds to assist in the legal defense.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. So she said No.
Okay.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, does it --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: We also went to her and
asked her if she would delay opening at the request
of the other side, because they said they- -
anyway ... and she said...?
TONY VAN DERWORP: No.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No. Okay. You also
asked her if there was any way that we could solve
this without a lawsuit.
And she said...?
TONY VAN DERWORP: I asked her about what kind
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of settlement options she might offer if we get
into, into that point.
And quote- unquote, you know, the only thing
that would matter, that would be necessary would be
for her not to serve meals, in her mind, from the
other side.
And she is not willing to do that. And she did
say that maybe making some progress on the railroad
might change things.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, but she's looking to
others to do that for her. She is not going to, she
is not proceeding with that.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, what- -
TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, that particular
aspect --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Is there an
advantage with the Attorney talking with her? I
mean what- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's dangerous
ground, I think- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, I--
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because she is ... she is
represented by the Legal Aid Society.
COMMISSIONER Mc CLANAHAN: Legal Aid Services,
isn't it?
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TONY VAN DERWORP: Yes, Central Florida Legal
Services.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, whatever it is. I
mean they have been with her and side -by -side with
her.
I mean, to me, it is dangerous ground for us to
do that.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yes, but if she
has legal representation- -
I'm thinking about this possibly helping, I don't
know.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it worried me that
it would be sort of dangerous if she comes back and
now says that, "I didn't have legal representation
pro bono; but I did have ... you should have..." I
mean Trina Kaye and others have been with her right
through this thing and advised her.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I don't
think she understands all of it there. I could be
wrong. She might not understand all of the legal
ramifications.
I'm not saying that she doesn't - -Well, what way
do you recommend that we get to the point that we
would probably... what would you say how we can reach
our objectives in mediation... What would you suggest
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that we need to do to do that?
Are you saying we just forget about it or are
you saying because she says that to Tony or to
whomever, that we should just forget that about the
mediation?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I'm not saying anything.
I'm just playing the devil's advocate and saying
that so far she has - -We instructed Tony to go talk
to her.
He did. He came back with her answer so far.
That, No, I don't have any money, and don't have
any pro bono defense --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, she said
that at the meeting, you know, she said that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she said, "I don't
have any settlement offers to make and No, I am not
willing to open at a later date."
So, the things that we asked Tony to go discuss
with her, her answers have been No.
TONY VAN DERWORP: And I talked with her
beforehand about, you know, we're in the middle of a
lawsuit; and there is a Development Order and under
Development Orders the City normally seeks to have
assistance with the Applicant for costs and
litigating.
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And given the fact that we do have a potential
mediation or settlement ability in this case, Are
there any settlement ideas or thoughts that she has
right now?
And that's where she said that, you know, the
only thing that would help would be not to serve
meals.
And she is not willing to do that. But then
she did add about the parking spaces and the
railroad.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that gets back to
what I said a while ago. That is a What -If, and
that we can't rely on.
TONY VAN DERWORP: Railroads are very
difficult... you usually end up buying the property
instead of getting rights, et cetera, unless there
is a --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, they will lease it.
I think they offered to lease it to her.
But there again, she said she didn't have the
money to lease it.
That is what she told us at the public meeting.
So I don't think we can, I mean if it goes to
mediation I don't think we can tie it up.
I don't think the other side would be willing
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to, because it might take five years, ten years to
get that negotiated with the railroad.
I don't think they're going to be willing to
accept that as a term.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I didn't
say what. I was just thinking about mediation, even
though I didn't, there wasn't anything special that
I was thinking about.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, do you..let me ask
you this: Considering that it is a Development
Order, if we were to go to her and say, you know,
We'll defend it if you join us but if you don't we
won't?
Would she have action against us to, you think,
because we didn't defend solely with the taxpayers'
nickel, even though it was for her benefit and that
is the normal to do?
MR. COLBERT: Well, you're going to get a
lawyer -like answer.
I keep saying that. I learned in law school
that people can file lawsuits for any reason any
time they want to.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I've learned that in the
school of hard knocks.
MR. COLBERT: Yes. And certainly they could
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file a lawsuit. Could they succeed in getting
something against the City if the City chose not to
join - -not to defend the lawsuit because they would
not participate?
That is your real question. And my answer is
Probably not.
But I've seen stranger things happen. And if
they are a party and we attempt to mediate and then
they become the stumbling block in the mediation,
there is another layer that helps insulate the City
from that possibility, which I have a greater
comfort level with. Do you follow what I'm saying?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, umm -hmm.
MS. REISCHMANN: If I could just add, too: If
you approach the party and we move to mediate and
mediation is set by the Court and she doesn't
appear, then there are penalties for that.
And her pleadings could be struck. She could
basically have judgment entered against her.
And the other thing about mediation is that you
have a very qualified person, basically more
qualified that a judge.
And in many instances he can explain to her
what the case is about. And exactly what you're
saying, that, you know, she doesn't understand all
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the legalities.
And she would at the end of mediation.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Provided we get her
there. Provided the other side brings her into
this.
MS. REISCHMANN: I think they will in this case
or they could.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But they may not.
MS. REISCHMANN: And the other ... the other
factor you have here is, you're talking about
mediation under the case that is consistent with the
Comp Plan Case. You can't mediate the appeal.
So, you've got a little bit of a technicality
there, too.
MR. COLBERT: But it's our understanding- -
correct me if I'm wrong.
It is our understanding from discussions with
the Plaintiffs' Attorney that they would abate the
certiorari proceeding, they would be willing to
abate the certiorari proceeding, would join Ms.
Metts' organization as a party- defendant.
And they would agree to go to mediation early
in the lawsuit if the City was willing to do that.
Are those all correct statements or have I
assumed too much?
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MS. REISCHMANN: Everything is correct up to
the mediation. I think there is some concern on the
Plaintiffs' part about the expense of mediation.
But I think that if everything else is in
place, including a temporary injunction, which is
their main concern, that we could get all the
parties to mediation.
MR. COLBERT: Okay.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Tony, you had your hand
up on that. Did you have something to say?
TONY VAN DERWORP: That was the question I had,
was How do they get them as a party?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, the other side
would have to get her to be a party.
MS. REISCHMANN: Generally you have an
applicant who willingly intervenes in a case like
this.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's what I say.
That is the norm in a Development Order position.
That's why I asked the question.
That being the norm, if we just went back to
her and said Okay, we're ready to defend it provided
you join us; if you don't, you know, we're just
going to let it take its course.
MR. COLBERT: In the normal scenario, when you
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have a Development Order, you have a developer
involved; and they have some things that they- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I've been on that side
many times. And I know that- -
MR. COLBERT: The moment you get served- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -and I've always said
Not only will I join you; I'm going to take the
lead here.
MR. COLBERT: That's right. But, see, we're in
a different scenario; and that's why dealing with a
different animal you just want to try to protect the
City's position as much as you can.
That's what my concern is. That's what my
responsibility is.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I would like to
ask a question. The next question: Okay. In
reference to this matter, if she contested, for
whatever reason, sue the City, bring a lawsuit.
Could other people, other groups and citizens
join Ms. Metts to sue the City?
MR. COLBERT: I have to give you the same
answer I gave the Mayor a minute ago when he was
saying that.
Certainly other groups could file a lawsuit
against the City for any reason.
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Whether they would have- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I thought so.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: They wouldn't have any
standing.
MR. COLBERT: - -any merit to it, I, I would
question their standing; and I don't think they
could succeed under any scenario I'm sitting her
thinking of.
When I was in law school a professor in law
school, under the Rules of Civil Procedure, burned
it into my brain as a freshman law school student
when he said, "I could go to the courthouse today
with a jackass over my shoulder and tell the Clerk
to file it; and they would have to file it."
So, anybody could file a lawsuit. The question
he taught me is: Can somebody successfully recover
from you?
And that's what lawsuits are about. And- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: They couldn't
join her but they could go down and file a new one,
just go down and file their own lawsuit?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, not anybody would
have standing to file a suit over this, other than- -
MR. COLBERT: Well, it's hard for me to see
where someone could have standing; but I could not
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tell you that someone may not try. Is that a fair
answer?
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yes, I think
that's fair.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Katie, did you know you
could file a jackass?
MR. COLBERT: I may have just taught everybody
something.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Why don't you amend your
Code?
MS. REISCHMANN: Well, yes, you can file
anything you want. File a jackass. That's the kind
of thing that concerns me.
MR. COLBERT: The professor's name was Mr.
Phillips.
I thought he was a doctor but he was not a
doctor.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Where was that, Bill?
MR. COLBERT: At FSU.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Is that right?
MR. COLBERT: In my freshman year in law school
in 1968- -1967, I'm sorry.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: How about that?
MR. COLBERT: He's dead now.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: He wasn't from Baton
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Rouge, Louisiana, by any chance, was he, Bill?
MR. COLBERT: Pardon?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: He wasn't from Baton
Rouge, Louisiana, by any chance, was he?
MR. COLBERT: I don't know where he was from.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because I know a lawyer
that is dead now that I bought some property from.
In fact, it was probably about - -it was ... from
the Phillips Family that lived in Baton Rouge.
Actually, it was in Westminster, Mississippi,
but he practiced law in Baton Rouge.
MR. COLBERT: He was quite a colorful figure.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: This guy was a real
colorful guy. I just wonder if it was the same guy.
MR. COLBERT: It could have been. There are
some stories he told us that I couldn't tell on the
record, though.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Well, here's where
we are, then, we have, I mean we denied the
allegations. They filed the suit.
Tony went back and did what we asked him to do.
The answer has come back No at this point.
So the question is Do we want to defend this
thing on the nickel of the taxpayers or, in my mind,
do we want to ask Jean Metts to join us?
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And if she doesn't, what do we want to do? And
my inclination is that if she doesn't want to join
us, then we're not going to spend any taxpayer
dollars on it, because it is solely to her benefit.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: The decision of
whether she wants to join us or whether she is
referring it to the agencies or --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it wouldn't make
any difference to me if I was, if I was in my case,
I mean I --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: No, I'm just
saying if she doesn't want to join us, just
listening to you, I didn't get the feeling that she
did not want to join us; but then she did not, she
was not financially able to.
But it is the same difference. She is still
not joining us.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she still hasn't
joined us.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: But that is the
feeling I got from you. The bottom line is, you
know --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I didn't feel that I was
financially able to either in those cases but I did
anyway.
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COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: You know, the
bottom line is that she will not be able to join us.
TONY VAN DERWORP: She has no funds to join
US.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: She has no funds
to join us at this point.
MR. COLBERT: Does anybody have any more
questions of me?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it sounds to me
like you feel pretty certain that they will grant
the injunction. I agree with that.
But it also sounds to me like you think you
would have a difficult case. Not an impossible case
but a difficult case.
MR. COLBERT: Fair statement.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So, what questions do
you -all have?
Or what direction? Let's hear your comments
on which direction you want to go.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Personally, I think
everybody on the Commission knows where I stand on,
see, I really, I don't have a problem except for the
fact that we're spending tax dollars, well,
actually, some of the citizens that are filing suit,
you know, all of us, we as a City are spending money
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we
to defend something that in my gut I don't think we
could prevail in it.
If this runs the course, which I think for a
sense of closure of the Commission and in the
community I would like to see it run its course, you
know.
I don't think we can prevail. I think Bill's
idea about a temporary injunction and whether or not
it is contested, and whatever the cheapest way to do
that is, try the mediation.
Katie brings up a good point. You know, I
think in good faith we should try all of those
things.
I think Seminole Volunteer Enterprises, if the
Plaintiff serves her as a Defendant, you know, she's
going to have to step up to the plate with the City
on it.
But to me it would, you know, this thing has
been a big deal in this community.
And in my opinion we are going to have a very
difficult time riding out - -I'm not an attorney- -
we're going to have a very difficult time
prevailing.
So, if I'm right, I think we should try to keep
costs down and, you know --
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What would mediation
cost?
MR. COLBERT: The parties would need, the
Court, if we went to mediation, would require the
parties, whoever they are, normally, to share
normally in the cost of mediation.
And a mediator would charge anywhere from a
hundred and fifty to two hundred dollars an hour.
And mediation would last anywhere probably from a
half a day to a day.
That would be a cost direct associated with
that.
For us to get ready to mediate, we would have
to make some preparation.
But in my opinion we could probably get ready
and go to mediation for less than five thousand
dollars, I think.
And- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So five or six thousand
dollars?
MR. COLBERT: Probably in that range. Versus
several times that getting ready for the trial and- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, if mediation fails
we'll go on to trial anyway, I would say.
MR. COLBERT: Yes. Well, yes ... there would be
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two avenues if mediation fails, to go to trial.
One would be to try to see if we could have a
stipulated set of facts to shortcut discovery and
that kind of thing and submit to the court some type
of stipulated set of facts for a judicial decision.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Of course, they would
have to agree to stipulate, too, isn't that correct?
MR. COLBERT: The parties would, yes. And the
other way is to just get ready and go to it. And
that is the most expensive way.
As Katie said, one of these is the battle of
the experts. And that would be the most expensive
way.
TONY VAN DERWORP: Couldn't there be a third
option, and if we get through and we don't find that
we can get anything offered from the parties at
settlement, to come back to this Commission and say
Do we really want to defend this case or not?
MR. COLBERT: And that is ... that is an option.
And we may be more comfortable from a legal
standpoint, having gone through mediation and seeing
where the parties are and where they are not.
Of being more comfortable with that option.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Does it cost the party
that benefits from it anything to go to mediation?
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MR. COLBERT: I beg your pardon?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Does it cost Jean Metts
anything to go to mediation?
MR. COLBERT: If she's a party, the Court
normally requires the parties to split the cost of
the mediator's fee.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So basically what we're
saying is Unless she is named as a party we're
probably not going to mediation?
MR. COLBERT: Probably not.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And how soon would
mediation occur, do you think?
MR. COLBERT: Probably within sixty days. Is
that a fair statement?
MS. REISCHMANN: That is fair. If you can get
a hearing officer, a mediator on it.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But in the meantime
they're going to still seek this injunction.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, I would expect that the
injunction would be entered or at least heard by the
Court in the next couple of weeks. Prior to the
fourteenth of February.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: But, Bill, I thought you
were saying something about you can accept the
injunction or something where we wouldn't be
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spending money to defend against an injunction that
you were saying you think they're going to get?
MR. COLBERT: Yes, if you -all authorize us to
either not contest or to agree to the imposition of
an injunction, we still would probably wind up going
to a hearing; but we would not be doing exhaustive
research and trying to defend against an
injunction.
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Right.
MR. COLBERT: And incurring additional fees
doing that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You mean if we just
volunteered to say Okay we'll study this thing?
MR. COLBERT: If the instruction from the
Commission would be for us as legal counsel to not
oppose the entry of an injunction and to seek
mediation.
That would short -cut some of the things that we
would have to do go get- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Would Jean Metts have a
case against us if we did that?
MR. COLBERT: No.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: We wouldn't, if it
prevented her from opening?
MR. COLBERT: I think what we would be saying
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is that we are willing as a City to preserve the
status quo, for the Court to look at all of the
allegations and reach a decision on the merits.
And I don't think that that exposes us, by
itself, to any attorneys' fees and court costs or
damages.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Mac, any comments?
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: No.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Any comments, Velma?
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: No.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Whitey?
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Yes, I have a solution,
hopefully.
The ... When this matter came before us as a City
Commission there were a couple of things that, as I
was sitting there I was not aware of.
One I did become aware of and the other one I
still haven't. I'm waiting for the City Manager to
give me that answer.
And I haven't heard from him yet. The first
one was that she came to the meeting saying that she
had, if I remember correctly, twelve parking
spaces.
Through Larry Dale's interrogation it was soon
determined, or after a while that she had none.
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I had committed to this variance waiver; and
like Larry said, that parking was a big part of my
consideration.
In fact, if you -all remember, before we took
the vote and the question was called Mrs. Metts
agreed and the City had asked her that she would try
to get the railroad to agree to give her these
parking spaces.
Having been on the record and having said that
I supported her, not being totally clear on how many
parking ... how many parking spaces there were, I felt
in a position that I would have to go by my promises
to various people that I would support her.
The second thing I was not aware of, and I'm
going to ask Tony right now, because you've had
plenty of time:
How much money does she get for running this
operation? Could you answer that?
TONY VAN DERWORP: A net with salary or was
that operational money?
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Well, no, not
operational; I know what the operational money is.
I'm talking about salary.
TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, I didn't check into
her salary.
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COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Now, I've asked you a
month ago to talk to Buddy Lelaze (All names spelled
phonetically) and other people and you have not done
that. Okay- -
TONY VAN DERWORP: I called Buddy to find out
if he knew- -
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Or Daryl McLain or
somebody could get you an answer. So --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I did that. Do you want
the answer?
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I did check into it.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And Daryl talked with
Buddy.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: See? Thank you. And
that's what I told you to do.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And he called my office.
And she makes thirty thousand dollars.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she pays her
daughter -in -law.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: X amount of thousand
dollars. And that figure Buddy was going to get
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back to me; but he didn't.
So she and her daughter -in -law are both being
paid from the funds she receives from the grant.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: That's what I read.
And, Tony, I'm a little disappointed that you
haven't, didn't get that information to me, because
while I was sitting there voting for this thing I,
at the time, parking was going through my mind.
But also, the question of self - interest. You
know, voting on this issue was based on helping the
community and having a volunteer organization coming
into the City, which a community can accept a lot
more easily sometimes than someone doing something
for profit.
And I think Ms. Metts is profiting by this;
and I think she is being rather recalcitrant in
trying to offer any type of mediation or compromise
because she would lose that salary.
I have offered and I've said and I've stated
publicly for the record and the newspaper that she
should maybe prepare her meals and have them
delivered somewhere else.
And that is what eventually I'm going to offer
Ms. Metts, because I'll tell you what I'm going to
do:
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What I'm going to do is, I'm going to ... and I
hope for the sake of the City that I will go and be
prepared to go at the next meeting and, under the
rules of Robert's or what - have -you, the prevailing
side, and change my vote against Ms. Metts trying to
support that with -- having voted on that evidence, I
was not being negligent; it was just a time when
you, you just ... there is no moment where you can go
out and settle some of these things on your
own ... already being committed to the parking spaces
that were there, already understanding that she
would, you know, that she would try to get the
parking added to the twelve that she had or whatever
or she didn't have.
And I would be willing to make a motion there
to overturn this decision.
Now, bearing that in mind, I would hope that
maybe Ms. Metts, in trying to save, hopefully, to
feed a hundred people, maybe even more now, that she
would try to transport this food somewhere else,
caring for these people; and make her, you know,
and I think trying to make her understand that, you
know, if you don't do this you're going to lose this
income for you and your daughter -in -law; and
hopefully that she would use that as a conduit for
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delivering food some place already serving these
needs, like the Salvation Army.
So, I'm throwing this out for somebody ... you
can tear me apart and - -but I've thought this over
for a long, long time. And I think that the best
way for the City to go is ... is to say ... and I'll
take the blunt of it, that I, as a City
Commisisoner, really in granting this variance, was
looking at the parking that she said she had, versus
the Mayor saying she had none.
She admitted she had none. I was already
committed to this vote. Also, I was also thinking
that she was not getting paid for this type of - -and
I think that makes a difference in how you look at
the programs, at these agencies and what they're
trying to provide.
So I'm going to throw that out. And see what
you guys have to say.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Bill, I think,
wants to say something. And I think I know what
he's going to say; but I'll leave it to him to say.
MR. COLBERT: Two things: I appreciate very
much what Commissioner Eckstein has said. And I
understand what he said and the sincerity of what he
said.
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I have to look at it from a legal standpoint.
And I need to throw out a couple of legal
issues.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Oh, let me interrupt
you.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: One second.
MR. COLBERT: Certainly.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: What I've agreed,
if ... if she agrees to move we'll pay her expenses of
moving her ovens if she goes some place.
I'm aware that she already has incurred
expenses. Okay? In setting this place up.
And I know she could sue us in light of this
decision. Now, I don't know if she can prove all of
these things that she put in there for the last two
weeks; I think anything before a certain date was
premature on her part.
And I don't think she would be allowed to
collect that. But be that as it may, I would rather
pay her for whatever she did, depending on our
decision or whatever.
And I think that's the - -and trying to find a
place for her to locate and all that. Bearing in
mind that she could sue us.
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I don't think there is a whole lot she could
collect. She could collect some.
But I think it would avoid a whole bunch of ... I
think it's a win -win situation; because the City
Commission is sensitive to feeding hungry people.
But the City Commission is also sensitive that
this is ... that this has gone into something where
the taxpayers are going to have to pay a lot of
money.
And chances are nothing is going to be settled
a year or two from now; and I think it puts us
more, even more in a vulnerable position.
I think this brings this to a conclusion real
quick. And if she wants to sue us for these things,
fine; but also remember that she is getting paid.
And I think she would be willing to listen. I
think we have a little bit of clout as far as her
income is concerned and her son -in -law's income or
her daughter -in -law's income.
And I'm sorry for interrupting. But I had to --
MR. COLBERT: No, that's all right. I wanted
you to have an opportunity- -
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Right.
MR. COLBERT: - -to express your position.
COMMISSSONER ECKSTEIN: I wrote that down, by
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the way. I didn't make that up.
MR. COLBERT: You know, the whole purpose of
our being here is to have discussion and for us to
get into it.
But in getting into it we need to give input
from a legal standpoint.
And what I was going to say is I appreciate
what you had to say.
And I understand where you're coming from.
There are a couple of legal implications there that
I need to apprise you and the whole Commission on.
One, you mentioned Roberts' Rules of Order.
And a motion to reconsider under Roberts' Rules of
Order does have to be made by a person on the
prevailing side.
The other part of that is, it needs to be made
at the next meeting.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: I said that.
MR. COLBERT: No, I mean at the next meeting
after the original action was taken.
And there have been several meetings of the
Commission more than thirty days- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I don't know that that is
a set tee, though, because I brought this up to MPO,
where they reconsidered a motion a month after they
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commitment there not based on the record that was
there.
And so that is another --
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Yes, and that's what I
feel most uncomfortable with because in my mind,
when - -and that vote was based on parking that would-
- -and you have to admit there was some question
about the parking that was going in there.
And a reasonable person would say that if there
was a question about the parking, even though Ms.
Metts says Well, you know, maybe I don't have any
parking, and Larry says, you know, and they go back
and forth, because, you know, even the Mayor at one
time thought they had twelve parking ... it became a
question in my mind, and it's awfully hard to
reverse yourself, because that came up at, you know,
the last part of the meeting. Granted.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, but- -
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: And I understand what
you're saying, is that, yes- -
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Well, within three
hundred feet of there you've got at least twelve
designated parking spaces.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: And, yes- -
MR. COLBERT: Again, what I'm saying is --
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COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: But, but the Land
Development Code, though, see, it violates the Land
Development Code.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: How does it violate
the Land Development Code, when the parking is --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, those parking
spaces that you're talking about along the Jaycee
Park --
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: That's right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: They were designated
specifically by this Commission to Jones Electric,
specifically, in the minutes.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Well- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Not to Jean Metts
Enterprises and not to the public.
Specifically, they were designated to Jones
Electric.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Well, that would be
attack -able to myself, but- -
COMMISSIONER LESSARD: By talking to people
about it and committing before, you see, we didn't
try the evidence.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Oh, I understand it.
No, I didn't try the evidence; but the evidence
that we had brought before us was already in the
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record, that she had twelve spaces.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let's let him
finish his train of thought, then we'll come back
and discuss our train of thoughts.
MR. COLBERT: So, I guess what I'm saying is
that that, to a lawyer- -
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Right.
MR. COLBERT: -- creates another legal argument
and another problem for us to try to deal with.
But the third aspect of it, again, from the
legal standpoint is that there is an argument that
the Commission has made a decision and the
Commission does not have jurisdiction at this point
to reverse that jurisdiction, because it has been
appealed and gone to the Court.
It is a decision made for which we cannot
reverse ourselves because of lack of jurisdiction.
It is like, you know, a court case, where new
evidence comes out at a later time while a case is
on appeal.
You know, you would almost have to get,
arguably, from a legal standpoint, get it sent back
down for further proceedings through certiorari or
something, for the Commission to have an ability to
change a decision that is already made and gone
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forward; and it not being at the next meeting at a
regularly scheduled meeting to do it.
So, while I understand what you're saying and I
don't disagree with what you're saying ... and I ... and
I appreciate where you're coming from in wanting to
save the City some expense.
From a legal standpoint it probably also
presents an opportunity to complicate matters even
more.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Well, why don't you
just settle the suit, then?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, my question was,
Can we say Look, we're just not ... we're not going to
defend it because we think it's indefensible.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It's going to cost our
taxpayers dollars for nothing. And what will it
take, you know, for you not to sue us over this?
MR. COLBERT: Meaning the Plaintiffs?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Meaning, no, no-- yes - -No,
meaning Metts.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Metts. Let me ask a
question, then. If suddenly the railroad gave the
parking and based on the Mayor's statement on two or
three occasions, that he would have reacted
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differently, had this been in the plan ... What would
be the approach of the five representatives here on
the lawsuit then?
Let's say if the railroad comes through and
says you do, you can have the parking, then what
reaction, then what path of action do we take?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think we would have to
agree to reconsider the hearing, then, and look and
see how many -- because I've not seen the site plan.
I don't know how - -I'm saying it would have affected
my thinking on it.
Because I would have then been asking questions
like How many parking places can you get?
What is the traffic circulation of that
parking? Is it, does it meet our requirements, you
know, the minimum spaces and all the Land
Development criteria?
I mean the fact that the railroad comes back
and says Okay, you can use it for parking, wouldn't
in and of itself mean anything until we reconvened
and had our staff staff it, brought it back to us to
consider, how many parking spaces she could get out
of it and what the ingress and egress and the
traffic safety, all the site, distance requirements
and all of that stuff would have to be looked at.
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And you're talking about doing something in a
short order that she has tried to do, or she says
for months or maybe a year.
COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Well, those spaces,
she has always been on record saying that- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Fourteen in fact is what
she said.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I'm sorry.
Yes. Like I said, I didn't know exactly. I
couldn't remember.
But she has always said that, you know, because
of her unique type of enterprise that she didn't use
many because of the number of people that would be
walking there.
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: But how can we ignore
those spaces? that you say we created for Jones
Electric?
And I was on the Commission. I would have to
see the minutes.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I pulled them, Mac,
and --
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: But we made it a
public parking area.
And how can we do that ... How can we do that for
one business and say it's not available for public
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parking?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Mac, you didn't
make it public parking. You told them... and in
fact, you told them they had to concrete those
spaces.
For some reason or another they never concreted
the spaces.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Right, we
told them not to --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But it was specifically
for Jones Electric set aside, not for the public.
In fact, if the public used it Jones Electric
could have come and complained to you and said Hey,
you set those aside for me.
So, you did not set them aside as public
parking spaces.
You did not pave them, you did not mark them;
you did not in any way make them safe - -you know,
that meet our mandatory- -
COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: - -and deny everybody
else parking- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: And it
didn't, you know, and I don't think we intended to
have that carried over with --
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, the
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P.O. Box 1422
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same thing could happen to us there that happened to
us over on --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, sure, you could be
in another lawsuit on that for setting aside what is
public right -of -way for private use.
MR. COLBERT: That's how it sounds. Because
we own the property in there, too.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, the only - -The
taxpayers own it. The public owns it. That's what
I'm talking about.
MR. COLBERT: Well, I'll tell you- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Those are not wise things
to do, in my opinion, to ever let private uses of
public rights -of -way, unless it is a special
district like downtown, which is a traditional use
since downtowns were created.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, let
me, I want - -Let me say something again.
Let me state for the record: What she
attempted to do, and the place that she attempted to
put it, I think I have no problem with.
I have driven by there so many times ... I have
had, asked friends of mine just to take a look at it
and say - -I think the Historic District saying that
the values of their homes will decline and all
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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that ... I pulled one of the people's, the amount of
money that he paid for his home and what he's asking
now and what he's paying in taxes and all that.
I think we can defend that as far as property
values are concerned.
Their property values have skyrocketed compared
to the decrease in my property value.
And I've put a lot of money into the house. So
I don't want to hear about the property values. And
I, I think if you're going to put it some place in
the Historic District, that would be the place to
put it.
The County is the one that put us in that
position. we did not put ourselves in this
position.
Now, since she did not meet the Land
Development Codes, all right, and a variance was
asked ... the parking was a big consideration in my
mind because I, I know, you know, you just
can't ... and I think all of us agree you can't just
waive zero parking.
All right, I just, I don't' think you can. And
so, for the record, I think that this is a little
bit of hysteria on the part of these people here
making - -And I don't want to give in to them.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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What I want to say is I just don't want this
City, I don't think it's worth, okay, the City to
feed a hundred people three times a week, to spend
fifty thousand dollars, when it looks like the City
probably will not prevail.
If we would prevail or something like that and
something could be worked out on the mediation - -But
she's not going to mediate.
I mean she doesn't have to mediate. I mean she
is, you know, she wants to keep her job. She wants
to sell food in there.
And that's why I was saying, threatening her
with changing my vote might make her amenable to
the - -to prepare food, then find some place already
that is serving food.
And they would qualify- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, and I, and normally
that might be okay. I'm afraid, though, and I'll
let Bill respond to this.
What I'm afraid of, Bill, is, if you threaten
somebody with doing it when you are under a lawsuit,
isn't there some legal thing there?
I mean I know I can't go, you know, in business
terms, I mean if I go and threaten someone in a
business deal - --
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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M it
MR. COLBERT: It is a potential problem.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I don't
think her salary was ever confidential. I mean most
people knew that they had gotten block grant money,
right?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I don't think
hardly anybody knew that she was getting paid a
salary from the block grant.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yeah, but- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She held it out to be a
volunteer - -In fact, the Chamber came to me and said,
"We're thinking about making her the Volunteer of
the Year."
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, see,
what threw me off- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I said, "Well, she's
not a volunteer."
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: She gave
Larry a letter one time.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: -- "She's getting paid."
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: - -that he
published in the paper or the paper published, that
said that - -and she was laughing in the back. "See
here, they say I make twenty five thousand dollars a
year. Isn't that," you know, "a bunch of crap."
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I knew, a
lot of people knew that she was getting paid.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Remember
that? Remember that? No, I didn't know. I
thought- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She never announced that
she was a volunteer. But I mean the very name of
her firm, Seminole Volunteer Enterprises- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: The sixty
thousand dollars that the County gave her.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I didn't
know she was getting paid.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What bothers me is, you
go to that building, and I've been there many times
since we started this thing.
The windows are broken out of it. Some of them
are barred up, some of them have got chicken wire
and stuff over it.
I mean it is, there has been no money spent on-
- -And we would not let anybody open a business of
any kind with the disrepair that that business is
in.
And what bothers me is, if by some fluke we won
this lawsuit - -and I don't think we will, but if by
some fluke we did, then you're going to have people
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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coming in here to open restaurants saying, "By the
way, I don't have any parking. But that doesn't
matter, because now, under your new regulations I
don't need any."
And we're going to be hard - pressed to turn them
down without them suing us, I think.
Is that not a possibility?
MR. COLBERT: That is an argument.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It's going to be a big
argument, I think.
And that scares me more than anything, that
we'll have bona fide restaurants trying to open- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: So, then,
we need to correct that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: That ... because we've got
a lot of restaurants here that are not like some
restaurants, like Logan's, where they spend millions
of dollars to build these things.
We've got a lot of restaurants here that are a
mom - and -pop thing, that are trying to do just like
Jean Metts did, get by on a shoestring. And- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, she
doesn't have a license yet, Larry.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But she is, I'm telling
you, she has already had some - -She is already
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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operating, is what I'm telling you.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, that
doesn't mean- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You're right, she doesn't
have a license yet.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: She doesn't
have a license yet.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She has not installed the
hoods yet, but she is --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: She still has a
restaurant - -Is she selling food?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It doesn't matter. By
her own admission, she said, "I'm not a soup
kitchen. I'm a restaurant." And in order to sell
food --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How does
she get paid?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Under our regulations
she's a restaurant.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: From the County.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, no,
does she get - -Does she serve just one meal a week or
three?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, see, I don't know
how she's going to get paid when she opens the
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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restaurant. I don't know what that thing will be.
Right now, just for the food distribution,
twice a month, she does it twice a month. She gets
paid thirty thousand and her daughter -in -law gets
paid --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, that's just
the food distribution, isn't it?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Pardon?
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: That is the first
time that occurred? Hasn't she- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, she's been getting
paid ever since she started doing it down there at --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I'm in agreement.
That's what I'm saying. Why is that so --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, the
first year she didn't get - -When she first started- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, when she started
she was a volunteer.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, that's what
I'm saying. People should have been aware that she
was getting paid.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: All right.
Well --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: So it's not that-
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, let
me just say this- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The last couple of years
down there she was- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Jean, I
was at a meeting with her after a City Commission,
that thing the County put me on, that Community
Service Block Grant.
And we deal with poor people. And she works
with poor people generally. I mean she - -at the
Mental Health Clinic we have a thing down there
where we meet.
And she is a good person. I'm not trying to
say, I'm not trying to say that she shouldn't get
paid --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think she- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: - -It's not
a monetary thing, but I'm just, what I'm ... What I'm
saying to you is --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think she is a little
mean - spirited, but I think her intentions are good.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: She would get the
thirty thousand dollars whether she was right there
or not ... wherever she would be, right?
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Probably so.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, see,
the thing about it is, when she started distributing
the food she had no parking there either.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She did, she had ... well,
she did at Zayre's. She had that whole parking lot
down there.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, sir,
I'm talking about at the railroad station.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Oh, yes.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Do you see
what I'm saying? So, your whole thinking is, going
into a meeting, she already had some parking there
already; and it was just added to it.
Do you understand what I'm saying, Bill?
MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir, I do.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I mean it's
logical that parking was something that, you know,
was a big deal, but yet, you go there right now and
you would have people parking in front.
But it's all, it's in the railroad right -of-
way, which we subsequently know now.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Actually, it's
right across from the School Board, the other School
Board Office there? Right across the street?
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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That's where I park when I go there.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Oh, yes,
umm -hmm.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: By the building
right there, right across, I park there, right
across from there.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, what
could we do to settle this suit?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: See, that,
the way I look at it, I mean it's ... there needs to
be a sense of closure on this deal.
And as cheaply and as fairly as we can do it, I
think, is the best for all involved.
I mean I, the salary of Jean Metts, I mean
personally I don't believe you should ever profit
from poverty.
I just, that is just something I've always- -
I've always felt that way.
And Jean is not the only one in that industry
or business or whatever you want to say, you know,
but whether her salary, that, you know, that is kind
of a lesser issue to me.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's not an issue
in the lawsuit, to me. The issue in the lawsuit is-
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, you
know, there are a lot of people that have done --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -she has no parking.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: There are a
lot of people that have gotten upset on both sides.
I mean, you know, poems have been written about
you. Jean says I've got a conflict of interest,
well, come on, you know, I'm not drawing a salary
from the issue we're talking about, so, the conflict
of interest?
I mean the folks - -I'm just trying to articulate
all the people that are involved in this emotionally
or, you know, there is --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay. Is
there a place in the City- -
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: But let me
finish one thing, Whitey.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Oh, I'm
sorry. I thought you were through.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: The thing
that I think has hurt me the most is ... is to have
really good- hearted people portrayed as folks that
don't like poor folks.
Grace and Grits has been operating every
Wednesday night for, and I believe it's the
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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Episcopal Church, right in the heart of the Historic
District without a peep.
It is ... it is not, you know, granted, there are
some nuts on both sides of this deal.
But I think collectively when we look at this
lawsuit - -I mean we've got to settle the thing.
I mean all of the other issues are just kind of
on the fringe of the thing.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How's about
this? All right. These people are suing us,
DeSantis and, et cetera.
Can we work with Jean Metts to find a place
that she could carry on the same operations, let the
Historic District try to develop it into apartments
or whatever the hell they want to do?
And are there any properties here that we could
relocate or where we could feed these poor people
and also distribute the food and satisfy these
people.
And, you know, if it's next to me, you know, I,
I will ... you know, if it is in my district, that's
fine.
I think --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, your neighbors
might not agree to that.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, I
understand that, but, you know, I, I feel badly- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There are places and
properties, yes, the Salvation Army, for instance.
They've got an enormous building, and they can
handle it. They've got parking.
MR. COLBERT: They are two blocks from my home
and have been ever since they opened, and I've never
had anybody come in my yard or --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So why would Jean Metts
not team up with them?
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, why
wouldn't she team up with them, Mac? That's
something I can't understand. And this whole
problem would go away.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Why would another
building be needed?
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: What?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I say Why would another
building be needed if these agencies teamed up with
each other?
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: To provide these things?
Because the Salvation Army does not feed people on a
regular basis.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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They only do it during emergencies.
MR. COLBERT: No, they do, oh, yes, they do
Meals on Wheels.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Meals on Wheels,
yes, but I'm talking about as a restaurant there at
their facility.
The other thing is --
MR. COLBERT: If they put a restaurant down
there those employees do get paid for it.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: The other
thing is, you know, all the properties within the
City are on the warpath. I mean if we put folks in-
-I mean the Salvation Army deal, when I talked to
Jean about it, it is more centrally located, the bus
lines, I mean, you know.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Wouldn't
that be, wouldn't that kind f discussion be
something that could come up in settlement?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: At the
mediation it could --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I don't know
whether it could or not. I don't think we have the
legal right to tell her she has to - -I mean we could
offer it.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But ... but she doesn't
have to agree to it.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I doubt very
seriously she would. I don't think we have the
legal right to go to somebody and say You need to
sell your building or you should have never taken
it.
Now, to me, I don't think they're going to make
a big issue of the fact - -You created your own
hardship.
"You, you took a piece of property that had no
parking."
MR. COLBERT: And it never had any parking.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, it
never had any parking.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But it has never been
used as a restaurant. "You took a piece of
property - -You took a piece of property that you knew
wasn't going to meet the Land Development
Regulations."
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, I
didn't know that.
MR. COLBERT: I don't think she knew.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I don't think she
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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knew, either.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Did you
know that? You didn't know that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, I knew it. Sure, I
knew it --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Also, what I
considered was that approval had been given to her- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I knew it didn't meet
our regulations, didn't have enough parking places.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: - -for the
distribution.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I'm talking
about the program for distribution.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: The distribution,
this is what I'm looking at, one of the things:
Permission had been given to her to operate that
food distribution center.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: That's not what this suit
is about.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I know, but what
I'm saying, with some consideration or the idea that
more people, you know, pass through there, whether
they go in and buy it or not as a result of that
food distribution than they would going there to
eat.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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Those sort of things that I thought about. I
said, Now, you know, what, what is the problem here?
You approved a food distribution. Well,
hundreds of people pass through that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, but only twice a
month, you know.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: But hundreds of
people pass through that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Twice a month.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: And then, you
know, I don't know what- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There is a whole lot of
difference between twice a month and five times a
week.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: But even
that, though, is dangerous. I mean even those days,
it's dangerous over there.
And- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Would the
Salvation Army be willing to work with Jean Metts?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: See, that's
my whole point on this whole deal, if --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Or some
other organization?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: - -if their
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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true intentions are to help folks, you would think
that working together would be the goal.
I don't know if there is a loss of funding on
either end if they merge or whatever. But they've
got a huge facility there, plenty of parking, you
know.
I don't know.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I don't know if
they've got plenty of parking but they've got
parking.
MR. COLBERT: Just to follow up on something
that the City Manager said, and that is kind of
bouncing around a little bit ... There seems to be
some desire by some of the Commission at least to
look at potentially other avenues or other ways,
other venues, to solve the problems, such as her
problem with the Salvation Army and finding some
other facility or something that at least
potentially could solve the problem.
If the Commission chose to do it, you could
have us basically be instructed to try to facilitate
...either not oppose the temporary injunction or to
agree to it.
Try to get to mediation as timely as we can.
In the meantime, instruct the staff to look at
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alternatives to try to identify sites or
alternatives.
And when we go to mediation we could lay those
alternatives out in the presence of a mediator and
may have some ... some assistance from a mediator in
selling alternatives.
And even if those alternatives aren't accepted,
it demonstrates to the Court at least a good -faith
effort on the City's part to solve the problem.
And then if we ... if we don't get it solved, but
then choose not to go forward from that point, at
least I have more comfort in the City's legal
position there.
I mean that may be something you want to
consider and decide whether we should have their- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let's take them one
at a time.
MR. COLBERT: Okay.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Mr. McClanahan
had a comment.
MR. COLBERT: Well, then she needs ... then she
needs to be made aware by Tony or somebody that the
parking doesn't mean...nothing -- anything.
That if she gets parking from the railroad,
that it means nothing, absolutely nothing.
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, nobody said that,
Mac --
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MR. COLBERT: Oh, bull.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I just told you a while
ago, I still have to --
MR. COLBERT: Bull.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -look at the layout of
the parking for this. We still have to have
another hearing.
MR. COLBERT: You haven't had any concern about
that, have you? about the parking? Whether it
has one or --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Mac, that is the whole
issue, to me. How could you sit there and say that?
The fact that she has zero parking is the whole
issue.
I don't understand how you could sit there and
say that.
MR. COLBERT: I just don't believe that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Are you calling me a
liar?
MR. COLBERT: No, I'm not calling you a liar,
Larry.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, you say you don't
believe it.
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Mac, did you
get the parking, and the little site plan comes in
and it works? Then we've got no right to interfere
with her- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The whole issue, to me,
is the fact that she has zero offstreet parking.
Zero. And that violates our Land Development
Regulations to the extent that we put ourselves in
endangerment for other people coming in and seeking
the same thing.
MR. COLBERT: Then she needs to be let aware,
made aware whether the parking would make a
difference in our reaction.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it would make a
difference. I said it would make a difference.
But not just the fact that all of a sudden CSX
says she - -I would have to look at it and see what
kind, then, of a significant variance that would be
and look at those six elements of it and look at all
of the safety ... site distance and all the other
things, the layout.
And see if they are bona fide parking that
meets the regulations we would require of anybody
else. That is the test of it.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask
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just one question. I'm unclear. When you say a
variance, you are not making exceptions?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Excuse me?
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: When you are
considering a variance, you're not making
exceptions?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You are, yes, you are
making exceptions to your Land Development
Regulations, based on those six criteria and the
significance of how much that variance is.
What we did in this case, we varied it all the
way down to zero, which is a complete waiver.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, one of
those, in my opinion, is...is subjective to personal
opinion and philosophy.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, this doesn't say if
you meet any one of them. It says that you have to
meet all six of them- -
MR. COLBERT: All of them. Okay.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Is another
avenue, maybe, to consider, is to talk to our County
Commissioner?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: About what? I've already
talked to him.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
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About ... in their helping us, you know- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I don't want to
hear about anybody bringing any pressure on anybody
for doing things.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, no, no.
What I'm saying is, if we --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I can tell you
this. If --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: If we can
get Jean Metts to agree- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Jean Metts refused to
divulge her finances, which the County is required
to do anyway.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay. Yes.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It raised hackles over
there not only with the Commissioners but with the
staff, who said Wait a minute, she has to divulge
her finances.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, because
that is public information.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she didn't do it.
She refused to do it.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, see,
this is what I'm saying. If the County Commission
said to Jean, Listen, you know, if we help you find
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another piece of property or whatever, to deliver
this food and to cook, you know, we want to help the
City because the City is in a situation right now
which is, you know, essentially could cost them a
lot of money.
Is there any way that- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I doubt that ... I doubt
that they would, because several of them have
already said, "That's not our problem. That's the
City's."
Our District Commissioner probably would, but I
doubt there would be a majority voter there to do
that, because they don't want to jump into a
potential liability situation.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I see.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: That would
normally be something, see, if we were talking about
settlement mediation, that ... not having it there,
but that party finding another spot to do it, we
would be able to have Ms. Metts make that as a
settlement offer.
And that would be something she would have to
go do.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, understand, that
building is not owned by the County. They gave it
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to her and a hundred and seventy thousand dollars
from Community Development Block Funds to renovate
it.
Now, I don't know what she spent that on. But
like I say, the windows are broken out of it.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: There is
another facility for that.
And that is another thing, Tony, with these
County properties, we have got to get on the same
page with them. Because, you know, there is --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, why don't
you just do whatever the Historic District wants you
to do and let's just resolve it?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Like how?
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Whatever it is
that the Historic District wants you to do.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, what they want- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Whatever they
want us to do.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, what the lawsuit
is, they want it to go away. They don't want her to
operate a restaurant.
MR. COLBERT: But she could continue to operate
the food distribution.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, yes, I don't
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think ... This lawsuit doesn't affect the
distribution, does it, Bill?
MR. COLBERT: No.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: No.
MR. COLBERT: No, it doesn't affect the
distribution.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So it doesn't affect the
distribution.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Supposing
they sued us on the food distribution?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, then, that would
be another thing. I mean I think they have waited
so long - -I mean they may have a case and they may
not. I don't know.
They would have to sue us on some kind of
damages issue of, you know- -
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: They would
have to put a case together and go down there on a --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I think, as I
said, again ... I don't know, but I guess if it's not
illegal, that our Attorney should talk to Jean
Metts.
Not advise her ... I'm not talking about advising
her.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I think he will if
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11M.
we say we want to go to mediation.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Talk with her,
and then ... I just don't believe ... I don't know her
extremely well, but, number one, I don't believe
that she would disobey a court order, number one.
Number two, I believe that if she understands
all of these ramifications and has time to think
about it that she would much rather operate a food
distribution, after thinking about it, similar, you
know, minus the restaurant thing and not have the
building at all.
And not have an operation at all. That's what
I'm thinking.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I think you're
right.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: That's what I'm
thinking. That's what I'm saying, you know.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But it really scares me
for the Attorney to go talk to her and for her to
try to claim we're trying to put pressure on her by
sending a Lawyer over there.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Oh?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It scares me that she
has --
MR. COLBERT: Yes, I have the same feeling
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about that.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Okay. Well,
okay. Well, maybe- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: With the Legal Aid
Services and everything and this and that.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Central
Florida Legal Services.
MR. COLBERT: Central Florida Legal Services is
the one.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, maybe if
the Lawyer could prepare five or six, you know, a
billet for you to go and make sure she understands
those. That's all. I don't know her, you know,
that well.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: I think she
understands this, because she has been involved with
development permitting and- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, all I'm
talking about is what the situation is, just like,
let me tell you this right here: Just like she got
up the other night, okay?
That basically is not Ms. Metts, not the Ms.
Metts that I know.
Okay? And out of fear ... I'm not justifying,
okay? Out of fear, out of whatever it is that she,
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she - -she read something that somebody gave her.
She has to suffer the consequences. And she
knows that, because they didn't force her to read
it.
And I feel that as we get into this, I think
she's going to think somewhat differently then.
She is going to think about the advantages and
disadvantages. I just feel that somehow- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Her
Attorneys want to enter "race" into the situation in
front of the Judge; and that was it.
And she read it, and that ... and that was the
whole idea, because she was hoping that if "race"
entered into it that a judge would be more favorable
in a ruling.
They want to add one more thing to the whole
thing.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, I see, I
understand that.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Here is
what I want to say: You know, and I could kill
myself, because in looking at this thing I, the
Historic District and all that, I'm very conscious
of it, and I think the other night I made my point.
I still think the Historic District is out of
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line. I think there is no better place to have
this thing if - -than where it's at.
What I got screwed up with was this
Development, you know, our Land Regulations. And
I'm looking at this thing and I'm thinking we can,
with the waiver- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yes.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: - -and, you
know, we've done variances before. And we've looked
very, like you said, subjectively.
And instead of strict interpretation like my
two attorney friends... loose interpretation ... but
you know, with this parking, that's - -when I went
home that night, that's what I felt bad about. And
the following days, you know, and then talking to
you and all that and, you know, I'm seeing what you
said in the paper about, you know, this is all
about ... and, you know, I tended more to agree with
you, because, you know, we did, I personally
violated something I don't want to do. And I did it
because I wasn't sharp enough that night really to
explore that parking thing.
And I should have tabled it and asked everybody
to go back to the drawing board.
You know, and I, I feel badly.
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COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, it,
somewhere it was stated that there were twelve,
eight to twelve parking spaces.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well,
actually it was fourteen. It was something like
that.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I mean something
was stated there. And I looked at it like that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, upon questioning
about that she said -- I said, "How many parking
spaces do you have ?"
And she said, "I have none."
And actually she has none. And when it goes to
court they're going to prove that she has- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: What twelve
parking spaces she was talking about?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Fourteen.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: What fourteen?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she's got some on
CSX, she was counting some on the public right -of-
way and --
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Well, we
would do it for Jones Electric, but we wouldn't do
it for --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: See, the problem is, we,
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we did not require of her a site - -and that's another
thing, if I was their Attorney I would attack - -we
require of everybody else a site plan that verifies
where their parking is.
We did not do that. We've never required her
to submit a site plan.
And we require everybody else to.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: We asked
for it on numerous occasions- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she never gave it to
us --
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: - -and she
never gave it to us, and never gave- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And normally, what you
would have done, if it had been me or what the
County would have done -- because I've dealt with them
before.
They would have never, it would have never gone
to the Commission. It would have never gone to P
and Z until they had the site plan.
They would say, "Bring us the site plan, we'll
schedule it with P and Z. No site plan, no P and
Z. "
We took it to P and Z anyway without a site
plan. That is another thing they're going to attack
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us on.
Because if you had the site plan it would have
been clear, Whitey, to everybody: "Hey, they have
zero parking."
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: And in
order to, well, I guess we can't go back and have
another hearing and undo that, based upon the
Attorneys' advice.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, he advised you not
to. You could do it.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: We could do
it.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It's like I said at the
hearing, I kept saying, "Yeah, you have the power to
do that. When it gets to the Court over there they
may tell you you didn't have the right."
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: And then,
secondly, what I'm hearing is that, well, if we're
ever going to get to the point where we bring Metts
to the table to talk about options, the only real
way to do that is to have those injunctions occur
and go to mediation, because then that brings her
into it, when she is not really into it right now.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's going to bring
her into it whether they name her anyway, if we
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agree to the injunction or if the injunction
happens.
Because either then she is either going to have
to come into it or she is not ever going to be able
to operate.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, I
think that this is the only way we can go.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: That's the
only way to bring her to the table, is to --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I can tell you, my
other thoughts is this:
Up until this point, she has not been willing
to cooperate on anything, site plan, anything.
Because she knew in her own mind, "I got three
votes, regardless of what you -all want. And I'm
just not going to do it."
If you go back to her now and say You don't
have - -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Three
votes.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It might change her mind.
Is that possible, Bill, without us getting into
trouble?
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well,
that's what I said ten, fifteen minutes ago.
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I know, that's why I --
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask
him this question- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, wait a minute.
Let him answer that first.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I'm sorry.
MR. COLBERT: I don't think that the
Commission intends to sit here and decide how they
would vote or not vote.
I mean that is not really what we're here to
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What I'm saying is, she
doesn't have three votes for us to defend the
lawsuit- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: She is
trying to develop a consensus now, and that is --
MR. COLBERT: I understand that.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
MR. COLBERT: Let me finish my train of
thought.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay. I'm
sorry.
MR. COLBERT: I've listened to everything you -
all have said and I'm trying to take it to heart.
And I'm also trying to keep the record one that I
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can defend in this procedure.
I understand what Commissioner Eckstein has
said, what he said and what several of you have
said, that you know information now that you didn't
know then.
And looking at it now with the eyes and the
information you have now, you would view it
differently then if you knew all of that.
And that you may view it differently if you
have an opportunity to review it again in the
future.
And it is not unreasonable in some way for Mrs.
Metts to understand that. What I don't think the
Commission intends to do, and I wouldn't want the
record to even infer that, would be that we today in
this room decide how we would vote if it came back
to us and we had another chance to look at it.
I mean if it comes back to you in some way for
a vote, either the Court sends it back or some other
alternative is provided and you have a chance to
vote on a potential settlement or if other ways are
provided to provide the same services you would be
required then to look at what is before you on that
day and make a decision on that day. And so the
record needs to --
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CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I think the parking
issue would come back with- -
MR. COLBERT: And so the record needs to be
clear that - -And if she understands that you have
some concerns and some misgivings, if she
understands, if that is the consensus of the
Commission, that you want to look for other avenues
to resolve it, that you expect her to be at the
table and mediate in good faith, and the City
intends to do that in good faith, there is nothing
wrong with communicating that to her.
Is that helpful? Do you understand what I'm
saying there?
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yep.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Does anybody have
a problem with us not objecting to an injunction,
moving to mediation, having Tony go to Mrs. Metts
and say There are a lot of misgivings here on the
Commission and we want to look to avenues of
settlement; and we would expect you to be there at
mediation?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, now,
can she legally come to mediation if they don't name
her as a Defendant?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Voluntarily she could.
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Oh, she can?
I don't know if she can or not.
MR. COLBERT: She could voluntarily. She could
ask to enter the case even if they don't bring her
into the case.
They could bring her into the case. Yes, they
could bring her into the case. We could seek to do
it - -We could seek to bring her into the case if we
chose to.
I think an easier avenue is for the Plaintiff
to seek to do that.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right. And
it's cheaper for us to let them do that.
MR. COLBERT: Yes. That's one thing that makes
it easier for us as Attorneys.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I think you have
seen a consensus of at least three here, that we
don't want to spend a whole lot of money on this,
because we fear that our case is weak.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I think all
of us agree, don't we? I should hope we would all
agree that we don't want to spend a lot of money for
a few thousand dollars.
MR. COLBERT: No.
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN:: No, but I
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don't want to roll over and play dead or set a
precedent that all anybody has to do when they
disagree with three votes on the Commission is to
bring a lawsuit and that's the end of it.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Right.
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: I would
hate for that to be perceived out there- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There is no precedent on
that, even if we, even if that were their
perception, there is no legal precedent that we
could just simply say the next time that you -all had
a very bad perception, because- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes.
MR. COLBERT: Well, based on what I've heard
from the Commission on a consensus basis, what we
will do is contact Plaintiffs' Counsel within the
next day or two through Mrs. Reischmann, who is in
the trenches on this; and we will communicate that
the consensus of the Commission is that we would not
oppose and perhaps we would join in a temporary
injunction if they seek a hearing before the Court
before the fourteenth.
And that we would support and agree to a court -
ordered mediation sooner in the case rather than
later if they bring her into the case.
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And then as we approach that mediation we would
try, from the City's standpoint, to have some
alternatives out there on the table for Mrs. Metts
to consider.
And go from there. The staff, I think, if that
is the consensus of the Commission, can go from here
and try to identify other alternatives and
communicate to Mrs. Metts the desire of the City to
explore those alternatives and be helpful.
And we will ask you for another Attorney- Client
Session should we feel the need to do so as we get
to a mediation and where we are on it.
Any settlement would have to be approved by you
before we could agree to it.
We could say to the mediator that would be
something we as the Attorneys for the City would
support and would recommend to the City Commission
but the City Commission would have to approve it.
And so I think that meets, if that's the
consensus of the Commission, that meets the
instruction that I needed.
Remember that what I needed today was to talk
to you concerning strategy in the case and potential
ways to control the cost.
I think the consensus you helped develop helps
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me try to control those costs and bring the case to
a quicker conclusion than we otherwise could.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I have a
question, Bill.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: What would
happen ... and I want to say this and this - -if we went
to DeSantis and them and got Mrs. Metts to agree to
serve once a week.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Once a what?
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Once a
12 1 week.
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Oh, to the
Plaintiffs? I know it's hard for everybody on this
Commission to believe but I don't interact- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: You don't
know?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: I don't
interact. On a legal level- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
Well, that's okay. No, I understand, but if she
went to once a week, okay?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's one of the
avenues they could explore.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well,
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that's my point, and that's my point. And that's
what we're here for, to brainstorm.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I mean, you
know, we got the sentiment that the community - -You
know, it's something to think about.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right. I
absolutely agree with what you're saying.
MR. COLBERT: Except they would be of the
opinion if they gave you that point they would be
admitting that their lawsuit is frivolous.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, you never know,
Mac --
MR. COLBERT: That is my interpretation of it.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, if
we --
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: I'll tell
you this, Whitey, that is a question that could be
easily answered.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Throw the bone out on
everything, and the bone may come back on us.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: That's
right. I mean, Larry, I hope these gentlemen
understand that, you know, they have to work with
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the City Commission, too; so I hope they are, you
know, that the recalcitrant is not there, and they,
that they would be willing to figure out something
with the City as good citizens.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Oh, I agree
with you, Whitey, but I want you to understand I am
not going to carry that message to them.
I don't think I --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, I
didn't ask you. I didn't ask you to carry that
message to them.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Tony would do that.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Or with the mediation,
throw that out- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, but
you're the District Commissioner; and I'm just
saying as a --
MR. COLBERT: That would be part of the
mediation, I would think.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Yes.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: An olive
branch, if you will.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes. Well, like I say,
the biggest concern I have is that if, if for some
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fluke or reason we won this thing or if it went
away, you know, because they dropped the suit, the
biggest concern I would have would be for other
entities coming forward and saying, "I don't have
any money for parking either. And since you let her
do it," that would really open up a can of worms.
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask
you, Why is that particular piece of land in the
Historic District? Is it generally in it --
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: They just
went all to French Avenue- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: They went and- -
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: They
squared off.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: And see,
that was done long before you and I and Velma were
here. What they did- -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I don't know why
that warehouse is in the Historic District.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And you weren't here,
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: I talked to
Andrew Mandell about it --
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Was that done while you
were here or --
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CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: It was done
over my screaming.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: What they
did, from what Andrew Mandell and Jay say is they
came up with that Historic District, you -all did
that - -
COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Umm -hmm.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Then - -and
they drove through there and did all the
contributing to the Historical structures in it.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, they didn't think
that was a contributing structure.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: It is a
scatter map, and you draw the boundaries around it.
You try to identify as many structures as you
can; and then just kind of square off the
boundaries and --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, but
Mac, you didn't disagree with that. What you
disagreed with was the real strict Historic
Preservation Codes that were in effect.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's true.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: And that
the City Commission wouldn't get the final say.
That is what we fought over.
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, I've
got one question
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: - -there was
a blond house over there...
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: We talked on
this voluntary, temporary injunction deal.
Now, are -- Because I think that's important to
have it articulated to us.
Who is going to be enforcing that? I mean- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The Court is, the Court.
MR. COLBERT: The Court.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: So who's
going to get served with the injunction?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: We will- -
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: We will, or
Jean Metts? or both?
MR. COLBERT: All of the parties to the lawsuit
will be bound by the Court's issuance of an
injunction if the Court does that.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And now that is just us
and the Plaintiffs.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Correct. So
what I'm saying is, okay, right now, and you - -He is
talking about an injunction- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If they're smart ... he's
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saying if they're smart, and what he thinks they're
going to do, they're going to join her in this
thing—
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Prior to
them seeking an injunction, okay.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And that's probably what
is going to happen.
MS. REISCHMANN: We would be enjoined from the
Development Order issuing.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right.
MS. REISCHMANN: Which is the parking variance.
We would be enjoined from issuing that, so to speak.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: So, in a
hypothetical, where they don't enjoin Seminole
Volunteer Enterprises we, we would be left to
enforce the Court's injunction?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: That's right.
MR. COLBERT: Yes.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: And that's
all I'm saying.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, but we can't --
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How do you
enforce it?
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, if we're under
court order, I mean, you know, we --
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CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, how
are you going to - -I don't know.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Have the
police brought in?
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, we,
you know, we would have to go ... we would have to go
with a Code Enforcement action; and if there is a
public assembly, I think we could shut that down;
because it is a public - assembly issue.
I think we can tape off the area, put a notice
up and- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But I don't think that's
going to happen. I think they're going to join her
in this thing and she's going to be under the
injunction, right?
MR. COLBERT: That's what I expect to happen.
That is what- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If they're smart that's
what they will do.
MS. REISCHMANN: Well, if the order, if the
injunction order is issued, even if she is not in
it, then the Plaintiffs can go to the Court and say
she is violating it; and then the Court can enforce
the order.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, so you're going to
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have the Court in it anyway.
MR. COLBERT: Yes. What we want to do is, you
know, from the legal standpoint, is just have it
subject to the jurisdiction of the Court, so it is
not all the City's- -
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right. I
just don't want to be found in contempt of court- -
MR. COLBERT: That's right. And we will
certainly do our best to see that that doesn't
happen.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Anything else?
MR. COLBERT: Well, this concludes the private
part of this. We need to, when the Commission is
ready, we need to open it back as a public meeting
to officially adjourn and let me make a couple of
comments on the record.
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Well,
before we do that, my understanding of what took
place here stays here within our - -we don't go
discuss this with anybody.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Oh, that's right.
MR. COLBERT: Yes, that's correct. This
meeting is a delayed broadcast.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Other than the fact that
Tony has the authority to go back and meet with
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Jean.
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Yes, I
understand that.
MR. COLBERT: And we have a responsibility from
what you've done, to go put in effect what you've
said.
And you have a responsibility as Commissioners
not to go out and talk to your constituents- -
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Or to the press.
MR. COLBERT: - -what is done here.
CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Should we,
then, when we go back into the public session give
Tony the instructions on the public part of it?
MR. COLBERT: No, no, it doesn't have to be.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, he can go ahead and
now do that, I think.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How long is
the delayed broadcast?
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: That is what
I was going to - -now, what- -
MR. COLBERT: Until the end of the lawsuit.
CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN; Right.
CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, that
was my only question.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: And then
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the other question I have is that, At which point in
time should I approach Metts with some of these
settlement options and what the Commission did here,
do I include them or wait until the injunction is
filed or --
MR. COLBERT: Let us, someone in our office
have just a day or two to digest what we've done
here; and then let us get with you and have a
discussion on the timing of it.
But I wouldn't do anything at nine o'clock in
the morning.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But brief all us before
you do that.
MR. COLBERT: I think it is something that we
will want to try to begin to accomplish within the
week.
CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Yes, I
understand the importance of that last comment.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Are we ready,
then, to open back to the public meeting?
MR. COLBERT: I think so.
(Thereupon the following proceedings were had
in public forum:)
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: All right. Having closed
the Executive, closed session, we will re -open this
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to the public meeting and, Bill, wrap it up. You
have the floor.
MR. COLBERT: Thank you, Mayor. I want to
thank the Commission for the time and attention that
you have provided us on this.
This meeting has taken approximately two hours,
a little longer than the hour to an hour and a half
that I predicted.
I do appreciate your input regarding settlement
negotiations and strategy relating to the
controlling of litigation expenditures. I thank you
for your input.
I think it has been helpful in that regard.
Mrs. Reischmann and I at this point will go forward
and try to put in effect the Commission's desires in
this.
We will advise you should we feel the need for
another Attorney- Client Session; and otherwise we
will be reporting to you in regular public sessions
of our progress.
Thank you, sir.
CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Thank you. The meeting
is adjourned.
(Thereupon the public and Executive Sessions
were concluded.)
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134
CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY /CSR
STATE OF FLORIDA )
SS.
COUNTY OF SEMINOLE )
I, C. B. Ellerbe, CP, CSR and Notary Public,
State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that I
was authorized to and did report the proceedings in
the foregoing cause to the best of my abilities,
Pages 1 through 133.
I further certify that said transcription is a
true and correct record of my stenographic report of
said cause.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto affixed my
hand and official seals this the 4th day of
February, A. D., 2000, in the City of Sanford,
County of Seminole, State of Florida.
(SEALS)
C. LLERBE, CP, CSR
CURTIS B. ELLERBE
Commission # CC 398353
* Zq*w Sep 22, 2002
now" 7hrn (Goal Ins. Ca
GSR
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certffc,i
9 0 repoxter, stat',,
OF ' at Lamgc.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422