012600 special attorney-client session agenda
AGENDA
Sanford City Commission Meeting
Wednesday, January 26,2000
Sanford City Hall, 300 North Park Avenue
Sanford, Florida
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Special Attorney-Client Session
4:00 P.M.
City Manager's Conference Room
CITY OF SANFORD EXECUTIVE SESSION**
** The Executive Session will be closed to the public to allow the City Commission to meet
with the City Attorneys to discuss legal strategy and potential resolution of two law suites which
have been filed against the City of Sanford. The following people will attend the attorney/client
session. Mayor Larry A. Dale, Commissioner Whitey Eckstein, Commissioner Velma H.
Williams, Commissioner Brady Lessard, Commissioner A. A. McClanahan, City Manager Tony
VanDerworp, City Attorney William L. Colbert, and Assistant City Attorney Catherine D.
Reischmann.
I. EXECUTIVE SESSION
2. ADJOURN EXECUTIVE SESSION
ADVICE TO THE PUBLIC: IF A PERSON DECIDES TO APPEAL A DECISION MADE
WITH RESPECT TO ANY MATTER CONSIDERED AT THE ABOVE MEETING OR
HEARING HE MAY NEED A VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS, INCLUDING
THE TESTIMONY AND EVIDENCE WHICH RECORD IS NOT PROVIDED BY THE CITY
OF SANFORD. (FS286.0 I 05)
PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES NEEDING ASSISTANCE TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF
THESE PROCEEDINGS SHOULD CONTACT THE PERSONNEL OFFICE ADA
COORDINA TOR AT 330-5626 48 HOURS IN ADVANCE OF THE MEETING.
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• 1
1 BEFORE THE CITY OF SANFORD CITY COMMISSION
2
3
4
5 In re: Executive Session, Attorney - Client
Session, January 26, 2000 - 4:00 p.m.
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7
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9
10
11 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS before the City of
12 Sanford City Commission, on Wednesday, January 26,
• 13 2000, City Manager's Conference Room, Sanford City
14 Hall, 300 North Park Avenue, Sanford, Seminole
15 County, Florida, commencing at or about 4:00 p. m.,
16 pursuant to Notice herein, the Honorable LARRY A.
17 DALE, Mayor, presiding.
18 Commissioners present: HERBERT "WHITEY"
19 ECKSTEIN, BRADY LESSARD, VELMA H. WILLIAMS and A. A.
20 McCLANAHAN:.
21 Also present: TONY VAN DERWORP, City Manager.
22 APPEARANCES:
23 WILLIAM L. COLBERT, Esquire, City Attorney and
24 CATHERINE D. REISCHMANN, Esquire, Assistant City
25 Attorney.
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
ORIGINAL
• 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. We're going to 2
2 call the meeting to order. The purpose of this
3 meeting, Bill, is an Executive Session that you've
4 requested And I'm going to turn it over to you to
5 lead us.
6 MR. COLBERT: Thank you, Mayor. The suit that
7 we're going to talk about today some people are
8 calling the Metts suit; but it is really styled
9 DeSantis and others, versus the City of Sanford.
10 There are two suits pending in Court.
11 And last week we got served with the last
12 Complaint; and I immediately then wrote to the
, • 13 Mayor and asked for an Attorney- Client Session; and
14 then I renewed that request verbally at the City
15 Commission Meeting on Monday.
16 And what I want to do in this Session is to go
17 into the Attorney - Client Session and brief you all
18 on the case; and have some discussion about some
19 strategy and ways to control costs and potential
20 ways to resolve the case.
21 Mrs. Reischmann and I are both working on the
22 case. I expect this Session to last about an hour
23 to an hour and a half, depending upon how much
24 discussion we have.
25 And then at the end of that we can open up
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
• 1 again and adjourn the meeting.
3
2 But are there any questions of me while we are
3 in the public part of this?
4 If not, Mayor, we can, then, go into the
5 Attorney - Client Session and close the doors.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. We will, then,
7 close the public session and go into the Attorney -
8 Client Session.
9 (Thereupon the following proceedings were had
10 in Executive Session:)
11 MR. COLBERT: I didn't introduce him a moment
12 ago, but Mr. Curtis Ellerbe is in the room. And he
• 13 is a Court Reporter. And I would like to review
14 with the Commission and on the record that before we
15 get into these very far, this will be familiar to
16 you; but I would like to review the Statute for
17 just a moment.
18 We are in an Attorney - Client Session; and it
19 is permitted under Chapter 286.011 of the Florida
20 Statutes.
21 Some people say this is outside the Sunshine;
22 but it is not.
23 I like to refer to this as a "Delayed
24 Broadcast."
25 All this is, is a meeting for which the entire
• C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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1 substance of this meeting will be taken down by Mr.
2 Ellerbe.
3 It will be transcribed and put in a transcript;
4 and at the conclusion of this litigation the entire
5 transcript will be made available to the public.
6 I say this, one, to remind the Commission that
7 we are on the record.
8 And, two, so that the public, when they read
9 this, will have confidence that they are seeing and
10 hearing this just as if they were here.
11 They are just seeing it and hearing it at a
12 later time.
• 13 The things that we can discuss under this
14 provision of the law are pending litigation...that
15 is why we had to wait until the actual suit was
16 filed to ask for it.
17 And we have to talk about things relating to
18 settlement or strategy as to containing costs of the
19 litigation.
20 I am going to get into that in a couple of
21 minutes. I think it is important for the Commission
22 to understand what has been filed against the City.
23 And I am going to review that briefly with you
24 for a couple of minutes, what is actually filed,
25 what the legal process is.
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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1 And I want to tell you a couple of the City's
2 options; and then I want to open it up to questions
3 from the Members of the Commission if you have
4 questions of us.
5 And then I need some consensus from you of
6 where we want to go.
7 And then when we're through with that we can
8 adjourn the meeting; but that's really what this is
9 about.
10 There are two actions that have been filed
11 against the City.
12 First of all, there is a Complaint called a
• 13 Petition for a Writ Certiorari.
14 And that is filed by Mr. DeSantis and others
15 against the City of Sanford.
16 And what that really is, is the - -the action
17 says that you were sitting as a City Commission in
18 your quasi - judicial capacity. And you made a
19 decision concerning the granting of a dimensional
20 variance.
21 That is, the parking variance, that related to
22 the, what some people refer to as the Soup Kitchen;
23 but it was an application by Seminole Voluntary
24 Enterprises to operate a restaurant under the City
25 Code.
• C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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1 And you granted them a variance; and what
2 this Petition basically tells the Court or suggests
3 to the Court is that you did not follow the
4 essential requirements of law.
5 They say that there were only certain things
6 that you could consider in that variance; and that
7 there was not enough evidence to support that
8 decision; and, therefore, the Court should reverse
9 that decision and, in essence, remand it back to you
10 and tell you that you cannot grant the variance.
11 If they prevail on that, that is what would
12 occur.
13 We're not saying they would prevail on that. I
14 just want you to understand what it is. It is a
15 review of your quasi - judicial decision that will be
16 the three -judge panel, three Circuit Judges will
17 look at the record. Look at whatever briefs we file
18 and whatever briefs the other side files.
19 They will give deference to the City, but they
20 will ultimately decide whether or not there was a
21 basis for the Commission to make that decision.
22 If they decide there was a basis for the
23 decision, the decision will stand.
24 If they decide that there was no basis, then
25 they will reverse and tell you that you cannot grant
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
• 1 the variance.
2 The other action is a Verified Complaint. And
3 it is an action that asks for what is called
4 Declaratory and Injunctive Relief.
5 And this case is assigned right now to Judge
6 Stephenson. Whether he will remain in the case or
7 not, I'm not certain.
8 Because he lives in the City of Sanford on Park
9 Avenue, down about Seventeenth or Eighteenth Street.
10 And there is a suggestion by some that perhaps he
11 should not hear it because he resides in the City
12 and some other Judge should hear it.
• 13 We're not to that point. But this was just
14 filed in the last week or so. And that will be
15 decided at a later time.
16 But what is alleged here is...is similar. But
17 the review is different.
18 On the certiorari, a three -judge panel will
19 look and see if in their opinion the City departed
20 from the essential requirements of the law.
21 In this Verified Complaint they're asking for
22 basically a new trial before the Judge, for Judge
23 Stephenson to decide whether or not this action by
24 the City was a Development Order; and if so, if the
25 actions of the City were consistent or inconsistent
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
1 with the current Comprehensive Plan and the Land 8
2 Development Regulations.
3 The allegation is that the Land Development
4 Regulations required the City to consider what the
5 Land Development Regulations were.
6 The Land Development Regulations require
7 offstreet parking for a restaurant, unless a
8 variance is given.
9 And then it goes back to argue that those
10 elements for granting as variance weren't present,
11 including the Planning and Zoning Commission
12 recommended against it.
• 13 The Staff recommended against it; and
14 notwithstanding that the Commission approved it.
15 The Commission shouldn't have, the argument goes.
16 And that would be, rather than a review, that
17 would be another trial in front of Judge Stephenson,
18 who, if he agreed with that, could issue a permanent
19 injunction and say that the variance could not be
20 given, that it is inconsistent with the Plan; and
21 that the restaurant could not operate.
22 For these actions to take their full course, if
23 we took the full course, we could be involved in the
24 certiorari for six months to more than a year.
25 I've seen them take a year and a half to two
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Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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1 years to get that far.
2 The Declaratory and Injunctive Relief Section,
3 under the Verified Complaint, a year or more is not
4 unusual.
5 I'm not saying it needs to go that long but it
6 could.
7 So, those are the two things filed against the
8 City. And I know I'm rolling out a lot of
9 information for you, but you are the decision
10 makers; and you need to have this information, as
11 we discuss this and as you make a decision.
12 Right now one of the important players is not
• 13 in the lawsuit. They are not at the table. And
14 that is the Seminole Volunteer Enterprises, Mrs.
15 Metts' group.
16 They are not parties attendant. Right now it's
17 the City of Sanford and the Plaintiffs in this case,
18 the seven residents.
19 As I understand it, the restaurant is set to
20 open around the fourteenth of February. That is an
21 announced date.
22 And as I understand it there was discussion
23 about whether or not Mrs. Metts would be willing to
24 delay the opening of her restaurant, whether or not
25 she would be willing to join in the defense of this
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 with the City.
2 Because it does affect their right to operate.
3 It is my understanding that she, her position is she
4 would not delay the opening voluntarily. And right
5 now there has been no attorney who has agreed to
6 take the case on a pro bono basis, that is, for
7 free.
8 Therefore, they do not have counsel at this
9 time. They may or may not have counsel later.
10 So, getting to the point of where we go from
11 here, I think that from a legal standpoint, I've
12 already told you, it can take some time for this
13 case to wind its way through.
14 It seems to me at least that it would be
15 important to have all of the parties involved in
16 this, that is, Mrs. Metts' organization should be
17 involved in it.
18 And I think that it is...that it is likely that
19 the Plaintiffs are going to soon attempt to join
20 Mrs. Metts' group as a Defendant in this case.
21 They would have to do that or the City would
22 have to do that.
23 I think they are going to do that soon. At
24 least that's the information that I have.
25 It seems to me that one way to help the City
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 contain costs and one way for this perhaps to be
2 resolved quicker and at least at less expense to the
3 City, would be if we, the City, either do not oppose
4 a temporary injunction or agree that the Court issue
5 a temporary injunction that would delay the opening
6 of the restaurant.
7 And also, agree that perhaps this matter could
8 be diverted early to a mediation with all three
9 parties, assuming that they are in it.
10 And then sit down and try to have some
11 discussion to see if there is some way to satisfy
12 both of the other sides, that is, the residents and
13 Mrs. Metts.
• 14
And I'm not sure what that might be. That
15 would be partially a mediator's job; but some of
16 the possibilities, to me, would be the potential of
17 the preparation of the food on premises and serving
18 it somewhere else.
19 Another possibility would be if they are able
20 to provide some parking through the railroad or some
21 other means, reducing the capacity by agreement to
22 fit whatever that parking is.
23 Or some other mechanism that would be
24 acceptable to the three parties. And I keep saying
25 the three parties.
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 That would be that group, the Plaintiffs and
2 the City involved in this case.
3 At least it seems to me that it is perhaps
4 worth some effort to try to see if that can be
5 accomplished.
6 And if it can be accomplished, it could short -
7 circuit and make moot this long -term legal battle
8 that I'm talking about.
9 If the attempt at mediation does not resolve in
10 some type of settlement - -any type of settlement
11 would have to be approved by the Commission - -but
12 assume for a moment that it did not result in a
13 settlement, then the City could come back, we could
14 have another meeting; we could decide whether to
15 try to limit the procedure by trying to agree to a
16 stipulated set of facts and then try to get the
17 Court to decide the case based on a stipulated set
18 of facts, versus a discovery and depositions and
19 that type of thing or rather to go to a full -blown
20 trial.
21 So it seems to me that our options are to go
22 full -bore right now, which I don't necessarily
23 believe is in the City's interest or the public's
24 interest.
25 Or to try to take some method to short - circuit
C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 the proceedings and see if a resolution can be done.
2 And if not, to go from there. Now, there are a
3 couple of questions that perhaps could come up that
4 I might try to answer before they come up.
5 One is, well, Could the City simply at this
6 time reverse itself and decide to give - -to deny the
7 variance?
8 To me, that presents the problem of satisfying
9 one group and opening ourselves, the City, to a
10 lawsuit by the other group.
11 I don't think that is a viable option at this
12 particular point in time.
• 13 Another question would be What about the
14 potential of not defending? not...not participating
15 and just letting the Court do what it wants to?
16 Well, there are two problems legally with that.
17 One is that if we don't defend we potentially open
18 the City to bad -faith and attorneys' fees arguments.
19 And the other is that it is probably at lease
20 arguably an invitation to others if they don't like
21 a decision the City makes, just sue them and the
22 City rolls over.
23 So, I mean there are several reasons that those
24 are not, from a lawyer's standpoint, particularly
25 attractive to do.
• C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 But the five of you are our clients; and we 14
2 need to understand where you want us to go and how
3 you want us to handle it and where we go from here,
4 which is the whole reason that I asked for this
5 Attorney- Client Session.
6 Having said all of that, I think, unless Mrs.
7 Reischmann wants to add something or the City
8 Manager wants to add something; and if they do,
9 this would be the opportunity to do it; but if they
10 don't, I would like for the Commission, if you have
11 questions you would like to ask us, to be able to
12 ask us those questions.
• 13 And then give us your input to what I've said
14 and where you believe you would like us to go and
15 how you would like us to proceed from this point.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What is this thing likely
17 to cost us if we go the route you say we're - -the
18 full circle, as you say?
19 MR. COLBERT: If we go the full circle we've
20 got two lawsuits that have to be dealt with.
21 We are paid by the hour. And it is...it is
22 hard to say how many hours we would spend when you
23 get into litigation.
24 I like to say Sometimes it's like a chess
25 match. You have to...you have to move and then wait
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 for the other side to move.
2 And depending on what they do, then you have to
3 decide where to go.
4 It could easily cost twenty, thirty, forty
5 thousand dollars...could easily cost that over the
6 next couple of years to go through that.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, you know --
8 MR. COLBERT: Mediation, an attempt at
9 mediation...and if that is successful, we could be
10 through with this in a couple of months at quite a
11 bit less cost.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If Jean Metts and
III 13 Volunteers....Seminole Volunteer Enterprises agrees,
14 there is nothing that we could do to agree to at
15 mediation, that if she disagrees with- -
16 MR. COLBERT: That's right.
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -that would work.
18 MR. COLBERT: That is correct.
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Have you talked to Jean
20 Metts since our meeting where we instructed you to?
21 and what was her response?
22 MR. VAN DERWORP: Well, as Bill already
23 mentioned, I talked to Jean on the twentieth at 3:30
24 in the afternoon.
25 He mentioned already that she does not have
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 funds to assist the City with attorneys' fees at
2 this point in time.
3 And that she also is intending to open on the
4 fourteenth or whatever the date was there.
5 With respect to settlement, I asked her if she
6 had thought about anything that might work in a
7 settlement or mediation environment.
8 And she told me that the only thing that would
9 probably work for the other side was to not serve
10 meals at all.
11 And she is not willing to do that. And that,
12 however, she is willing to make progress with
!II 13 respect to trying to get the railroad right -of -way
14 for some parking spaces.
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she's tried to do
16 that; and others have tried.
17 TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I don't know if
19 you've ever dealt with the railroad. I would assume
20 that you have.
21 TONY VAN DERWORP: I have.
22 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: In some capacity with the
23 County. And it is about like dealing with the devil
24 himself.
25 TONY VAN DERWORP: I would be very surprised if
IIIM B. Ellerbe & Associates
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Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 the railroad gave her permission to use their
2 property without outright purchase of it.
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I would, too.
4 TONY VAN DERWORP: It is a liability which
5 they don't want to --
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It is her attitude. She
7 is bound and determined. Someone on the other side,
8 I understand, asked her if she would delay opening.
9 And she said, "No, under no circumstances will
10 I delay opening." Okay. So, if she, if there is no
11 desire in her to mediate with us, are we not wasting
12 our time? I mean we have already talked to her
• 13 about it.
14 If we go talk to her again, you might as well
15 say the same thing.
16 MR. COLBERT: Well, I understand your question.
17 And the answer is Without an agreement from her
18 mediation would not, you know, be productive.
19 What I'm talking about, though, would be a
20 temporary injunction being probably issued by the
21 Court doesn't oppose it or agrees to it, which would
22 preserve the status quo, while that organization is
23 brought in as a party instead of a bystander.
24 And then under a court - ordered mediation with a
25 court - appointed mediator, have a discussion and see
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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• 1 if something can be done which satisfies all
2 parties, including the City of Sanford; and if that
3 happens, it's a moot point.
4 If that is not successful, we have, through
5 that exercise at least helped isolate the City from
6 a potential claim by Mrs. Metts' organization later
7 if the case does not go their way.
8 So, there are several benefits to doing that
9 scenario.
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let me be sure I
11 understand what you just said.
12 Are you telling me that if we lose this lawsuit
11/ 13 she could then turn around and sue us for damages
14 because we lost the lawsuit?
15 MR. COLBERT: I'm not saying- -
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because she couldn't
17 open?
18 MR. COLBERT: I'm not saying that she could
19 prevail on a suit against the City if the lawsuit is
20 not won.
21 But I am concerned that if the lawsuit is not
22 defended to avoid - -of a judicial decision versus
23 inaction or less than good -faith action by the City,
24 that there could be some exposure.
25 And so, bringing them in, attempting mediation,
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P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422
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1 trying to resolve it and either resolving it or not
2 provides some benefit to the City and the taxpayers,
3 in my opinion.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And until we get to the
5 point where she is willing to, well, if she's
6 willing - -if he gets named in, this is all going to
7 be on the taxpayers' nickel?
8 MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So she wants us to defend
10 it vigorously.
11 MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: At no cost to her.
1111 13 MR. COLBERT: Well, I haven't talked to her,
14 but I mean- -
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Is that right, Tony?
16 TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, she has no funds to
17 assist us in this lawsuit at this point.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she is possibly a
19 defendant, but she is not willing to go into a
20 defense, even though it benefits her.
21 And if she refuses to mediate, which it sounds
22 to me like she is, then the costs are going to be on
23 the taxpayers all the way through this, maybe up to
24 your cycle - -Now, if they grant the injunction, which
25 I feel they probably will, then that would be done
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1 fairly soon.
2 That is not going to take two years to go to
3 this injunction- -
4 MR. COLBERT: No, that would be done, if it's
5 going to occur, between now and the fourteenth of
6 February.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Will that injunction
8 remain in effect until this thing is settled, then,
9 do you think?
10 MR. COLBERT: It will remain in effect until
11 either the case is over or the Court finds a reason
12 for lifting the injunction.
13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And if they grant the
14 injunction and she operates as a restaurant in the
15 meantime -- Because I know she has operated several
16 times already and has not pulled an occupational
17 license.
18 MR. COLBERT: Well, the injunction, if it is,
19 you know, we would have to see it to understand it
20 totally, but if it played the way I perceive it to
21 be played, the injunction would in effect prohibit
22 the operation of those premises as a restaurant.
23 If they are a party to that suit, the Court has
24 jurisdiction over them. And then if the court order
25 is disobeyed, the penalty is contempt of court, for
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• 1 which the Court can impose penalties.
2 That is, a daily fine or whatever, until the
3 contempt is cured, the ceasing of operation.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let me ask you
5 this: Would they have to name her as an additional
6 party, a decision, our decision against her - -so they
7 don't have to name her as an additional party to
8 have an injunction, do they?
9 MR. COLBERT: Well, the City is the only party
10 Defendant right now. And there is a request for an
11 injunction against the City.
12 If the injunction is granted against the City,
• 13 there is a question in my mind of What is the City
14 supposed to do to keep them from operating as a
15 restaurant?
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I would assume we're
17 supposed to say We're under a court order not to let
18 you open.
19 MR. COLBERT: Well, we would.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And it would be up to our
21 Code Enforcement people to stop her from doing it.
22 MR. COLBERT: But I'm not, yes, I understand
23 what you're saying. I'm not sure that the best
24 posture would be for the City to be the Court's
25 enforcement arm.
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• 1 I would...I would be more comfortable if they
2 were a party and they were subject to the
3 jurisdiction of the Court and they were responsible
4 for any violation of the Court Order.
5 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Mike Jones is not
6 your average thinking Attorney.
7 MR. COLBERT: I understand.
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And he's a bulldog. And
9 he loves to do these things.
10 MR. COLBERT: Well, I understand.
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And another thing, he
12 does it at his own expense.
13 MR. COLBERT: I have worked with Mr. Jones and
14 on the other side for about, almost thirty years.
15 I remember when he came to Seminole County, just
16 shortly after I did. I enjoy working with him
17 sometimes and against him sometimes; and he is a
18 good lawyer and a good person, and very, very
19 bulldogish.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, he is.
21 MR. COLBERT: And fun to litigate with. But
22 I'm not sure I ought to have that much fun at the
23 City's expense, so I try to figure out a way to
24 short - circuit that a little bit.
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But I mean if Metts is
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• 1 named in this thing, she is still not, probably not
2 going to hire legal counsel, unless she can get pro
3 bono.
4 And I know for a fact she has tried hard to do
5 that through the Central Florida Legal Aid Society,
6 because they have made many calls to attorneys, who
7 have called me.
8 MR. COLBERT: And a number have called me.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Right. And none of them
10 are willing to take the case.
11 MR. COLBERT: I understand.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So far. That I know of.
I/ 13 So, what if they name her and she still doesn't have
14 legal counsel?
15 MR. COLBERT: Well, if they name that
16 organization- -
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -and protect her and the
18 company and individually, too, at the taxpayers'
19 expense?
20 MR. COLBERT: No, it's not incumbent on the
21 City to do that, if that was your question.
22 If they name that organization, they have an
23 obligation to defend or respond to the Court.
24 If they do not, the Court could basically enter
25 what is called a default against them on the time
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1 the answer is due to the Verified Complaint and
2 those types of things.
3 And the Court could go on and adjudicate rights
4 that affect them without further participation on
5 their part.
6 But they would be bound by the decision.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The fact that some of
8 these firms have called me and had rather pointed
9 questions make me tend to think that they feel that
10 it is not a very defensive position on it.
11 What do you think the chances of this
12 injunction being entered are?
• 13 MR. COLBERT: I think the chances of an
14 injunction being granted are fairly good. What an
15 injunction would do would be to preserve the status
16 quo, while the case goes on to some kind of
17 conclusion.
18 And it is not unusual for a court to grant a
19 temporary injunction and then go forward and decide
20 on the merits of the case.
21 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: Well, if the
22 railroad said today that she could have the parking
23 that would not stop this suit.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, it would have to be
25 mediated to the standpoint that, you know, that
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25
2 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: This suit has not
3 been brought because they didn't have the parking
4 authority.
5 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Bill, I think you should
6 comment on that, because, Mac, that's what the case
7 was about.
8 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: No, wait, let me
9 finish, then, okay?
10 The case, that cited a negative reaction to
11 property values; and all of those different things;
12 and it has not - -if, if we had had the railroad
I
411 13 parking there we would have still been challenged by
14 this group of people.
15 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: We don't know that.
16 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: I really believe
17 that. Well, that's my personal opinion.
18 Because that is not the...that is not the
19 problem...is not parking that is causing the suit.
20 Now, we know, that. Larry, think about it.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, no, Mac, I read the
22 suit; and it clearly cites the fact that we have
23 granted this waiver or this variance and that we did
24 it illegally.
25 That's what the suit is about.
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411 1 That is what you can sink your teeth into. I
2 can tell you, if the CSX parking had been there it
3 would have made a big difference in how I thought
4 about it, going into that public hearing, and on the
5 merits...and I based my decision based on that.
6 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: But you- -
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But my decision was based
8 a hundred percent on the fact of the Land
9 Development Regulations and the fact that we, not
10 only did we give it a variance, we waived it
11 completely.
12 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: But why can a
• 13 restaurant, then, in the same SC -3 District on First
14 Street take a building that was never a restaurant
15 and become a restaurant; and there has never been a
16 question; and it has never come before us?
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because our Codes allow
18 that to happen in a SC -3 District, where we have
19 designated parking and a building that is less than
20 a thousand square feet.
21 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: That doesn't even
22 make any sense.
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's what our
24 Codes allow. Our Code allows that.
25 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: It doesn't make any
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1 sense to me.
2 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Those things meet our
3 Code. I mean we --
4 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: It makes no sense at
5 all.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I mean, you know, I asked
7 Are we going to designate parking for this? And we
8 said No, we're just going to let them park - -We
9 didn't designate - -There is no City- designated
10 parking for this or any other use in that area.
11 There is no set -aside public parking for it.
12 And there is no set -aside private parking for it.
• 13 And that's what this case- -
14 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN:: Well, there is
15 public parking around the place.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let's ask Bill and
17 Katie. I don't think we're going to be able to go
18 in there with a defense that this case is really
19 about some other thing, property values, this, that
20 and the other, when they have cited specifically
21 those six issues in that variance in our Code, that
22 that is the true merit of the case that is going to
23 be tried.
24 MR. COLBERT: If, let me try to answer it this
25 way:
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1 And I'm here to give you advice and answer your
2 questions; and I'll try to do that: If they were
3 able to get parking sufficient to meet the city
4 Code, after the fact, that by itself would not stop
5 the lawsuit.
6 But if they could provide the parking, the
7 Court - -and it could be shown - -there would be a
8 likelihood, in my opinion, that the case may be sent
9 back to the City to take further evidence and
10 testimony and see if the parking could be provided.
11 And let the City have another opportunity to
12 grant the variance or not.
• 13 As to what Commissioner McCLANAHAN: just said a
14 couple of moments ago, that...that that, if they had
15 the parking it wouldn't stop the lawsuit.
16 It wouldn't stop it from that regard; but if
17 it came back to the City and we went through it and
18 if the City either granted or denied the variance,
19 then either side would have a chance to have another
20 appeal, based on the new decision.
21 And the property owners surrounding it may
22 choose something else to argue at that point.
23 And I can't- -
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But's that a big if.
25 You've got to --
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1 MR. COLBERT: I can't handle that or deal with
2 that, but I can- -
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You can't defend it based
4 on what -if after this, that was- -
5 MR. COLBERT: No, it's not anything like that.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I have dealt with CSX
7 for thirty years, and I doubt very seriously if
8 anybody is going to get them to let her just use
9 that for parking.
10 And she has already said she has no money to
11 even lease it from them.
12 MR. COLBERT: Well, the suit right now pretty
. 13 well- -
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think that is a moot
15 point for us to consider here, whatever CSX does,
16 whether CSX does anything.
17 MR. COLBERT: The case right now is pretty much
18 pending on the granting of the variance by the City
19 relating to the parking. And it's...if the parking
20 issue goes away, it would take quite an amendment to
21 these pleadings for them to still be in court.
22 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I agree with you. I
23 think if the parking issue went away they would have
24 a whole lot less sting in their lawsuit.
25 But I don't see that happening. And I don't
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1
think we can defend it, based on, well, I just don't
2 think it's going to happen.
3 MS. REISCHMANN: I just wanted to add that we
4 do have two separate lawsuits that are very
5 different and have very different facts and very
6 different allegations, although they seem like they
7 are similar.
8 So it is...just so we don't get confused about
9 what we're talking about.
10 And I think the action where they are seeking a
11 trial, they do mix it up a lot; and they talk about
12 the issues of putting a non - residential use next to
411 13 residential use.
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, they talk about it,
15 sure, they've gone through as many points as they
16 could.
17 MS. REISCHMANN: And they are totally- -
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Sure they have and they
19 have also talked about decreased property values.
20 MS. REISCHMANN: And at trial- -
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But a smart Attorney
22 like Mike Jones is going to say the reason the
23 property value is decreased, not just based on the
24 merits of the non - residential use; the fact that
25 there is no parking. And they're going to be
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• 1 parking all over our places.
2 MS. REISCHMANN: But that's what they've got to
3 focus on. And I think they've gone way beyond that.
4 And I think that the appellate action, the
5 certiorari action is the one that really would be
6 difficult.
7 The other one would be much more expensive;
8 but it is a battle of the experts.
9 And usually when you have a battle of the
10 experts, when you've got the burden of proof in your
11 favor you win.
12 So, they are two different kinds of cases.
13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Velma, you acted like
14 you wanted to say something?
15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I have a
16 response, but I just wanted to make a statement with
17 reference to something.
18 I think it was along the lines of what
19 Commissioner McClanahan makes reference to.
20 I realize what is there. And if that is the
21 most important thing and the reason for which they
22 are filing the lawsuit - -I would like to ask a
23 question regarding the things that I heard during
24 the City Commission Meeting and the statements that
25 have been made in the paper.
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1 Which they didn't mention anything more than
2 just, just the parking, also; but I- -And so, does
3 that come into play at any point?
4 Even though, as I said, and they are stating
5 here; and they have, you know, they don't say that
6 there specifically; but they're talking about the
7 crime, they talk about me, they talk about - -There
8 are a lot of things they talk about in terms of the
9 property value and the crime and all of those kind
10 of things. And some of them actually say, you know,
11 it has nothing to do with parking.
12 It's the crime, it's the kind of people who are
13 there, all of those kinds of things. Although I'm
14 saying that that, the lawsuit does not state that.
15 It states, it gives another reason.
16 But those things have actually been stated.
17 MR. COLBERT: Well, the Court is not going to
18 be persuaded or permit things that have been said
19 outside this lawsuit to be considered as evidence.
20 And if people have been quoted in the paper or
21 if they've been, you know, written letters to
22 editors of if they made other statements not in
23 connection with this lawsuit and not part of the
24 record, the Court isn't going to get into that
25 aspect of it.
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• 1 I could see that if we go under the Verified
2 Complaint and what has been referred to earlier as
3 kind of a shotgun approach, I could see, you know,
4 in a trial de novo, where some evidence may be
5 proffered to the Court about property values or
6 other things as it relates to the Development Order
7 and the effect on these folks.
8 We would be trying to contain or eliminate
9 that. And I don't know where the Court would come
10 from in that aspect of it.
11 So, I guess I've just given you a lawyer -like
12 answer, but that is probably what my job is.
• 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Another question I'm
14 going to ask for clarification purposes, lack of
15 knowing about this aspect, a question about, you
16 know, boundary lines, you know, there are
17 restaurants, there are a couple of clubs; and they
18 don't have their own parking.
19 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. And they are in
21 the same, I guess, zone. So, how does that differ?
22 How is that different?
23 MR. COLBERT: Well, you know, one of our
24 arguments is that - -that too is, again, a lawyer -
25 like answer.
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1 But there are restaurants, too, in the downtown
2 area that don't have parking.
3 And we will present, should we need to, some of
4 that to the Court for the Court also to consider.
5 The City had an ordinance that relates to the
6 direct downtown area and recognizes the lack of
7 parking in the downtown area.
8 And it either provides an eight hundred or a
9 thousand -foot distance requirement like to public
10 parking, a parking lot or something.
11 And if the business is within that distance, my
12 recollection is that, that by action of the
• 13 Commission previously, those parking places are
14 considered and counted that people can access the
15 restaurants through the use of public parking.
16 So that cuts both ways.
17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that particular
18 restaurant, where she is located is not considered
19 downtown. It is just a commercial --
20 MR. COLBERT: It is not within that distance- -
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If it is not within the
22 provisions of that ordinance, then, the Land
23 Development Regulations, you know, ordinance,
24 distance- -
25 MR. COLBERT: It is not within a public parking
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• 35
1 lot, yes.
2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: is not within that
3 distance.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's in the SC -3
5 Zone, but it's not in the area where - -See, we had
6 designated parking downtown at public, we have
7 designated public parking for those businesses in
8 the downtown area, on all the parking lots, as well
9 as on- street parking.
10 But we haven't done that within eight hundred
11 feet of the building that she has.
12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The downtown district.
• 13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Right. It doesn't fall
14 within the parameter - -and that's going to be their
15 argument before the Judge, see.
16 That does not apply to this.
17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I question, though- -
18 MR. COLBERT: And we don't have to fall on our
19 sword and say, you know, you lose because of that;
20 but there are some arguments that we make to relate
21 it to the downtown area; but in truth and in fact
22 the City has treated them differently and recognized
23 it differently in an ordinance; and has not
24 designated something where that one is.
25 And that is a legal distinction that the Court
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• 1 can and probably will recognize.
2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Another question
3 is, okay, when, as a City Commissioner, okay, what
4 are some of the factors that I should consider when
5 contemplating a variance for someone?
6 MR. COLBERT: Okay. When you are contemplating
7 a variance, the City already has rules in effect of
8 when a variance can be granted.
9 And those are...those relate to whatever kind
10 of variance there is.
11 In other words, there are dimensional
12 variances, there are other kind of variances.
• 13 And the City Code sets those out. What we're
14 looking at here is what is called a dimensional
15 variance.
16 And the six elements are whether or not special
17 circumstances exist on this particular piece of
18 property.
19 Special conditions and circumstances that are
20 not the action of the applicant.
21 In other words, the applicant has not created a
22 hardship themself.
23 Whether the granting of that variance will
24 confer any special benefit...
25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To the individual or to
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1 the agency?
2 MR. COLBERT: To the applicant, whoever that
3 is.
4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
5 MR. COLBERT: In this case it would be Seminole
6 Enterprises or whatever.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Or to the property.
8 MR. COLBERT: Yes. Whether the literal
9 interpretation of the ordinance would deprive the
10 applicant of rights normally enjoyed by others.
11 Whether the variance is the minimum variance
12 required to accomplish what they need.
• 13 And whether the variance would be in harmony
14 with the surrounding area- -
15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The surrounding area
16 being a lot of warehouses, for example, there are
17 warehouses and that type of thing around this
18 particular area.
19 MR. COLBERT: Well, there is --
20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or are you talking
21 about the whole historic district? Are you talking
22 about the whole, the entire historic district?
23 MR. COLBERT: The harmony really talked about
24 in the ordinance is the harmony with the general
25 intent and purpose of the ordinance.
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1 But you look at an area and you look at the
2 surrounding area. I don't think there are any
3 different standards that really set it out
4 But out there you have kind of a mixed area
5 that includes residences; it includes the, well,
6 the Jaycee Park about a block away.
7 It includes some warehouses and a railroad.
8 But it's a mixed area. It is not one particular
9 thing.
10 Those elements relate to a dimensional
11 variance.
12 There are other elements that relate to other
• 13 variances.
14 And actually, to answer your question, I was
15 looking back at the Complaint, because they were
16 gracious enough to list those in the Complaint.
17 There are some things that we as City Attorneys
18 can argue against each of those.
19 The Court will be asked to decide whether these
20 elements existed or not when it makes its decision.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: May I see the Complaint?
22 MR. COLBERT: Sure. There are things that are
23 highlighted.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because you remember,
25 every meeting you kept saying, you know, "I don't
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• 1 want to do anything illegal."
2 And I'm not saying this is illegal. And I kept
3 saying You need to --
4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understood what you
5 said. I know what the six were.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Each one of them, one
7 through six- -
8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know what the six
9 were.
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Right. But we didn't- -
11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I know what the
12 six were. I'm asking the Attorney, I'm asking for
13 clarification, not because I don't understand it.
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But there are other
15 elements- -
16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's something I can
17 understand.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There are other elements
19 in the Complaint that now there is a lawsuit, I
20 guess.
21 That they - -Where is that? Or there are other
22 allegations that they're talking about.
23 They're talking about some of our Comp, our
24 Comprehensive Plan requirements that requires, you
25 know, people to meet the Land Development
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2 Talking about the traffic, you know,
3 circulation requirements, a minimum automobile
4 offstreet parking requirements, the six guidelines
5 that we should have gone by when we granted the
6 variance.
7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me ask you this:
8 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: These are the six
10 guidelines that we should have gone by? Are those,
11 can some of those relate back to a subjective
12 standpoint as opposed to, you know, you have to have
• 13 concrete evidence...you know, concrete evidence
14 that, number one, this does exist, that doesn't
15 exist?
16 Number two, it does or it doesn't, it can kind
17 of be subjective in terms of who is looking at it?
18 in terms of, you know, what your mindset is or what
19 you bring to that?
20 Or what you think about where it's located or
21 what is surrounding it, that type of thing?
22 MR. COLBERT: Well, there needs to be some
23 evidence in the record from which the Commission can
24 draw the conclusion that each of those elements are
25 met.
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• 1 That does not mean, to your words, that it has
2 to be in concrete, where...where you hold out the
3 list and you hold out things and you say It meets
4 this, it meets this, it meets this...it meets this.
5 You don't have to go through that detail and
6 exercise to come to that conclusion.
7 But as Lawyers, the clearer it is, the easier
8 our job is to defend you.
9 Our job in defending this suit is to go back
10 now through the record and find elements which we
11 can in good faith say to the Judge meet these
12 requirements.
410 13 And we think there are some there. We wish
14 they were clearer and more in concrete.
15 But you do that in every case.
16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
17 MR. COLBERT: You know, when you sit and have
18 twenty- twenty hindsight you say, well, you know, it
19 would have been nice if this had happened or that
20 had happened or the other.
21 But we're not here saying that we cannot defend
22 this case or that we will not defend this case or
23 that we will absolutely lose the case.
24 We are saying it's difficult, number one.
25 Number two, it is probably going to take a long
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• 1 time.
2 Number three, right now all the parties are not
3 in it.
4 And we're asking if...if you want us to see
5 about facilitating a temporary injunction and try
6 and get the parties together and try and get it
7 resolved and short - circuit it. I don't know why
8 that got stumbled there.
9 But - -And try to get it resolved and move on.
10 And I don't know that it will get resolved.
11 But it is probably worth the effort to do that.
12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One more question.
• 13 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In reference to Ms.
15 Metts: Somebody has reached a conclusion that, that
16 she is not willing to mediate or something.
17 Somebody has reached that conclusion. And I
18 think I heard you say, well, you have not talked to
19 her; so you don't know whether she is willing or
20 not.
21 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would it be
23 inappropriate or illegal, you know, for you to talk,
24 to go see her and talk with her and see if she would
25 be willing to mediate, you know, engage in the legal
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• 1 issues?
2 MR. COLBERT: As long as she is not represented
3 by counsel it is legal for me to talk to her.
4 If she ever gets counsel then I cannot talk to
5 her at all.
6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, I was just
7 wondering.
8 MR. COLBERT: The City Manager has already done
9 that; and he already has her answer. I doubt that
10 I could charm her anymore than he could and get a
11 different answer from her.
12 But to answer your question, we could do that.
• 13 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I was just
14 thinking, as an Attorney, you know, sometimes
15 understanding what the ramifications are, looking at
16 the advantages and disadvantages sometimes...just a
17 thought I had.
18 MR. COLBERT: Well, if she says No, we're right
19 back to where we are today, and that is --
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she has said No, to
21 my understanding.
22 Here is what we did at the last meeting that we
23 discussed this, took official action:
24 Number one, we denied the allegations.
25 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
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• 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: On a three -two vote. So
2 that this would be filed as a lawsuit so we could
3 get to this point.
4 And number two, we authorized the City Manager
5 to go have discussions with her to see if she would -
6 - -I forget how it was worded in the minutes - -join
7 with us in the defense.
8 TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Tony has done that. She
10 has said...?
11 TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, she said at this time
12 she has no funds to assist in the legal defense.
• 13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. So she said No.
14 Okay.
15 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, does it --
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: We also went to her and
17 asked her if she would delay opening at the request
18 of the other side, because they said they- -
19 anyway...and she said...?
20 TONY VAN DERWORP: No.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No. Okay. You also
22 asked her if there was any way that we could solve
23 this without a lawsuit.
24 And she said...?
25 TONY VAN DERWORP: I asked her about what kind
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2 into, into that point.
3 And quote- unquote, you know, the only thing
4 that would matter, that would be necessary would be
5 for her not to serve meals, in her mind, from the
6 other side.
7 And she is not willing to do that. And she did
8 say that maybe making some progress on the railroad
9 might change things.
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, but she's looking to
11 others to do that for her. She is not going to, she
12 is not proceeding with that.
• 13 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, what- -
14 TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, that particular
15 aspect- -
16 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Is there an
17 advantage with the Attorney talking with her? I
18 mean what- -
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's dangerous
20 ground, I think- -
21 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, 1 --
22 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because she is...she is
23 represented by the Legal Aid Society.
24 COMMISSIONER Mc CLANAHAN: Legal Aid Services,
25 isn't it?
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• 1 TONY VAN DERWORP: Yes, Central Florida Legal
2 Services.
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, whatever it is. I
4 mean they have been with her and side -by -side with
5 her.
6 I mean, to me, it is dangerous ground for us to
7 do that.
8 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yes, but if she
9 has legal representation- -
10 I'm thinking about this possibly helping, I don't
11 know.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it worried me that
III 13 it would be sort of dangerous if she comes back and
14 now says that, "I didn't have legal representation
15 pro bono; but I did have...you should have..." I
16 mean Trina Kaye and others have been with her right
17 through this thing and advised her.
18 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I don't
19 think she understands all of it there. I could be
20 wrong. She might not understand all of the legal
21 ramifications.
22 I'm not saying that she doesn't- -Well, what way
23 do you recommend that we get to the point that we
24 would probably...what would you say how we can reach
25 our objectives in mediation...What would you suggest
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1 that we need to do to do that?
2 Are you saying we just forget about it or are
3 you saying because she says that to Tony or to
4 whomever, that we should just forget that about the
5 mediation?
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I'm not saying anything.
7 I'm just playing the devil's advocate and saying
8 that so far she has - -We instructed Tony to go talk
9 to her.
10 He did. He came back with her answer so far.
11 That, No, I don't have any money, and don't have
12 any pro bono defense- -
• 13 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, she said
14 that at the meeting, you know, she said that.
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she said, "I don't
16 have any settlement offers to make and No, I am not
17 willing to open at a later date."
18 So, the things that we asked Tony to go discuss
19 with her, her answers have been No.
20 TONY VAN DERWORP: And I talked with her
21 beforehand about, you know, we're in the middle of a
22 lawsuit; and there is a Development Order and under
23 Development Orders the City normally seeks to have
24 assistance with the Applicant for costs and
25 litigating.
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1 And given the fact that we do have a potential
2 mediation or settlement ability in this case, Are
3 there any settlement ideas or thoughts that she has
4 right now?
5 And that's where she said that, you know, the
6 only thing that would help would be not to serve
7 meals.
8 And she is not willing to do that. But then
9 she did add about the parking spaces and the
10 railroad.
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that gets back to
12 what I said a while ago. That is a What -If, and
• 13 that we can't rely on.
14 TONY VAN DERWORP: Railroads are very
15 difficult...you usually end up buying the property
16 instead of getting rights, et cetera, unless there
17 is a --
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, they will lease it.
19 I think they offered to lease it to her.
20 But there again, she said she didn't have the
21 money to lease it.
22 That is what she told us at the public meeting.
23 So I don't think we can, I mean if it goes to
24 mediation I don't think we can tie it up.
25 I don't think the other side would be willing
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1 to, because it might take five years, ten years to
2 get that negotiated with the railroad.
3 I don't think they're going to be willing to
4 accept that as a term.
5 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I didn't
6 say what. I was just thinking about mediation, even
7 though I didn't, there wasn't anything special that
8 I was thinking about.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, do you..let me ask
10 you this: Considering that it is a Development
11 Order, if we were to go to her and say, you know,
12 We'll defend it if you join us but if you don't we
• 13 won't?
14 Would she have action against us to, you think,
15 because we didn't defend solely with the taxpayers'
16 nickel, even though it was for her benefit and that
17 is the normal to do?
18 MR. COLBERT: Well, you're going to get a
19 lawyer -like answer.
20 I keep saying that. I learned in law school
21 that people can file lawsuits for any reason any
22 time they want to.
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I've learned that in the
24 school of hard knocks.
25 MR. COLBERT: Yes. And certainly they could
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1 file a lawsuit. Could they succeed in getting
2 something against the City if the City chose not to
3 join - -not to defend the lawsuit because they would
4 not participate?
5 That is your real question. And my answer is
6 Probably not.
7 But I've seen stranger things happen. And if
8 they are a party and we attempt to mediate and then
9 they become the stumbling block in the mediation,
10 there is another layer that helps insulate the City
11 from that possibility, which I have a greater
12 comfort level with. Do you follow what I'm saying?
13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, umm -hmm.
14 MS. REISCHMANN: If I could just add, too: If
15 you approach the party and we move to mediate and
16 mediation is set by the Court and she doesn't
17 appear, then there are penalties for that.
18 And her pleadings could be struck. She could
19 basically have judgment entered against her.
20 And the other thing about mediation is that you
21 have a very qualified person, basically more
22 qualified that a judge.
23 And in many instances he can explain to her
24 what the case is about. And exactly what you're
25 saying, that, you know, she doesn't understand all
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• 1 the legalities.
2 And she would at the end of mediation.
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Provided we get her
4 there. Provided the other side brings her into
5 this.
6 MS. REISCHMANN: I think they will in this case
7 or they could.
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But they may not.
9 MS. REISCHMANN: And the other...the other
10 factor you have here is, you're talking about
11 mediation under the case that is consistent with the
12 Comp Plan Case. You can't mediate the appeal.
• 13 So, you've got a little bit of a technicality
14 there, too.
15 MR. COLBERT: But it's our understanding- -
16 correct me if I'm wrong.
17 It is our understanding from discussions with
18 the Plaintiffs' Attorney that they would abate the
19 certiorari proceeding, they would be willing to
20 abate the certiorari proceeding, would join Ms.
21 Metts' organization as a party- defendant.
22 And they would agree to go to mediation early
23 in the lawsuit if the City was willing to do that.
24 Are those all correct statements or have I
25 assumed too much?
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• 1 MS. REISCHMANN: Everything is correct up to
2 the mediation. I think there is some concern on the
3 Plaintiffs' part about the expense of mediation.
4 But I think that if everything else is in
5 place, including a temporary injunction, which is
6 their main concern, that we could get all the
7 parties to mediation.
8 MR. COLBERT: Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Tony, you had your hand
10 up on that. Did you have something to say?
11 TONY VAN DERWORP: That was the question I had,
12 was How do they get them as a party?
13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, the other side
14 would have to get her to be a party.
15 MS. REISCHMANN: Generally you have an
16 applicant who willingly intervenes in a case like
17 this.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's what I say.
19 That is the norm in a Development Order position.
20 That's why I asked the question.
21 That being the norm, if we just went back to
22 her and said Okay, we're ready to defend it provided
23 you join us; if you don't, you know, we're just
24 going to let it take its course.
25 MR. COLBERT: In the normal scenario, when you
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1 have a Development Order, you have a developer
2 involved; and they have some things that they- -
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I've been on that side
4 many times. And I know that- -
5 MR. COLBERT: The moment you get served- -
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -and I've always said
7 Not only will I join you; I'm going to take the
8 lead here.
9 MR. COLBERT: That's right. But, see, we're in
10 a different scenario; and that's why dealing with a
11 different animal you just want to try to protect the
12 City's position as much as you can.
13 That's what my concern is. That's what my
14 responsibility is.
15 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I would like to
16 ask a question. The next question: Okay. In
17 reference to this matter, if she contested, for
18 whatever reason, sue the City, bring a lawsuit.
19 Could other people, other groups and citizens
20 join Ms. Metts to sue the City?
21 MR. COLBERT: I have to give you the same
22 answer I gave the Mayor a minute ago when he was
23 saying that.
24 Certainly other groups could file a lawsuit
25 against the City for any reason.
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• 1 Whether they would have- -
2 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I thought so.
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: They wouldn't have any
4 standing.
5 MR. COLBERT: - -any merit to it, I, I would
6 question their standing; and I don't think they
7 could succeed under any scenario I'm sitting her
8 thinking of.
9 When I was in law school a professor in law
10 school, under the Rules of Civil Procedure, burned
11 it into my brain as a freshman law school student
12 when he said, "I could go to the courthouse today
• 13 with a jackass over my shoulder and tell the Clerk
14 to file it; and they would have to file it."
15 So, anybody could file a lawsuit. The question
16 he taught me is: Can somebody successfully recover
17 from you?
18 And that's what lawsuits are about. And- -
19 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: They couldn't
20 join her but they could go down and file a new one,
21 just go down and file their own lawsuit?
22 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, not anybody would
23 have standing to file a suit over this, other than- -
24 MR. COLBERT: Well, it's hard for me to see
25 where someone could have standing; but I could not
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•
1 tell you that someone may not try. Is that a fair
2 answer?
3 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yes, I think
4 that's fair.
5 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Katie, did you know you
6 could file a jackass?
7 MR. COLBERT: I may have just taught everybody
8 something.
9 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Why don't you amend your
10 Code?
11 MS. REISCHMANN: Well, yes, you can file
12 anything you want. File a jackass. That's the kind
13 of thing that concerns me.
14 MR. COLBERT: The professor's name was Mr.
15 Phillips.
16 I thought he was a doctor but he was not a
17 doctor.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Where was that, Bill?
19 MR. COLBERT: At FSU.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Is that right?
21 MR. COLBERT: In my freshman year in law school
22 in 1968- -1967, I'm sorry.
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: How about that?
24 MR. COLBERT: He's dead now.
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: He wasn't from Baton
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• 1 Rouge, Louisiana, by any chance, was he, Bill?
2 MR. COLBERT: Pardon?
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: He wasn't from Baton
4 Rouge, Louisiana, by any chance, was he?
5 MR. COLBERT: I don't know where he was from.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Because I know a lawyer
7 that is dead now that I bought some property from.
8 In fact, it was probably about - -it was...from
9 the Phillips Family that lived in Baton Rouge.
10 Actually, it was in Westminster, Mississippi,
11 but he practiced law in Baton Rouge.
12 MR. COLBERT: He was quite a colorful figure.
• 13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: This guy was a real
14 colorful guy. I just wonder if it was the same guy.
15 MR. COLBERT: It could have been. There are
16 some stories he told us that I couldn't tell on the
17 record, though.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Well, here's where
19 we are, then, we have, I mean we denied the
20 allegations. They filed the suit.
21 Tony went back and did what we asked him to do.
22 The answer has come back No at this point.
23 So the question is Do we want to defend this
24 thing on the nickel of the taxpayers or, in my mind,
25 do we want to ask Jean Metts to join us?
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1 And if she doesn't, what do we want to do? And
2 my inclination is that if she doesn't want to join
3 us, then we're not going to spend any taxpayer
4 dollars on it, because it is solely to her benefit.
5 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: The decision of
6 whether she wants to join us or whether she is
7 referring it to the agencies or --
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it wouldn't make
9 any difference to me if I was, if I was in my case,
10 I mean I --
11 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: No, I'm just
12 saying if she doesn't want to join us, just
13 listening to you, I didn't get the feeling that she
14 did not want to join us; but then she did not, she
15 was not financially able to.
16 But it is the same difference. She is still
17 not joining us.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she still hasn't
19 joined us.
20 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: But that is the
21 feeling I got from you. The bottom line is, you
22 know- -
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I didn't feel that I was
24 financially able to either in those cases but I did
25 anyway.
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• 1 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: You know, the
2 bottom line is that she will not be able to join us.
3 TONY VAN DERWORP: She has no funds to join
4 us.
5 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: She has no funds
6 to join us at this point.
7 MR. COLBERT: Does anybody have any more
8 questions of me?
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it sounds to me
10 like you feel pretty certain that they will grant
11 the injunction. I agree with that.
12 But it also sounds to me like you think you
• 13 would have a difficult case. Not an impossible case
14 but a difficult case.
15 MR. COLBERT: Fair statement.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So, what questions do
17 you -all have?
18 Or what direction? Let's hear your comments
19 on which direction you want to go.
20 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Personally, I think
21 everybody on the Commission knows where I stand on,
22 see, I really, I don't have a problem except for the
23 fact that we're spending tax dollars, well,
24 actually, some of the citizens that are filing suit,
25 you know, all of us, we as a City are spending money
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• 1 to defend something that in my gut I don't think we
2 could prevail in it.
3 If this runs the course, which I think for a
4 sense of closure of the Commission and in the
5 community I would like to see it run its course, you
6 know.
7 I don't think we can prevail. I think Bill's
8 idea about a temporary injunction and whether or not
9 it is contested, and whatever the cheapest way to do
10 that is, try the mediation.
11 Katie brings up a good point. You know, I
12 think in good faith we should try all of those
13 things.
14 I think Seminole Volunteer Enterprises, if the
15 Plaintiff serves her as a Defendant, you know, she's
16 going to have to step up to the plate with the City
17 on it.
18 But to me it would, you know, this thing has
19 been a big deal in this community.
20 And in my opinion we are going to have a very
21 difficult time riding out - -I'm not an attorney- -
22 we're going to have a very difficult time
23 prevailing.
24 So, if I'm right, I think we should try to keep
25 costs down and, you know- -
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1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What would mediation
2 cost?
3 MR. COLBERT: The parties would need, the
4 Court, if we went to mediation, would require the
5 parties, whoever they are, normally, to share
6 normally in the cost of mediation.
7 And a mediator would charge anywhere from a
8 hundred and fifty to two hundred dollars an hour.
9 And mediation would last anywhere probably from a
10 half a day to a day.
11 That would be a cost direct associated with
12 that.
13 For us to get ready to mediate, we would have
14 to make some preparation.
15 But in my opinion we could probably get ready
16 and go to mediation for less than five thousand
17 dollars, I think.
18 And- -
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So five or six thousand
20 dollars?
21 MR. COLBERT: Probably in that range. Versus
22 several times that getting ready for the trial and- -
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, if mediation fails
24 we'll go on to trial anyway, I would say.
25 MR. COLBERT: Yes. Well, yes...there would be
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1 two avenues if mediation fails, to go to trial.
2 One would be to try to see if we could have a
3 stipulated set of facts to shortcut discovery and
4 that kind of thing and submit to the court some type
5 of stipulated set of facts for a judicial decision.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Of course, they would
7 have to agree to stipulate, too, isn't that correct?
8 MR. COLBERT: The parties would, yes. And the
9 other way is to just get ready and go to it. And
10 that is the most expensive way.
11 As Katie said, one of these is the battle of
12 the experts. And that would be the most expensive
13 way.
14 TONY VAN DERWORP: Couldn't there be a third
15 option, and if we get through and we don't find that
16 we can get anything offered from the parties at
17 settlement, to come back to this Commission and say
18 Do we really want to defend this case or not?
19 MR. COLBERT: And that is...that is an option.
20 And we may be more comfortable from a legal
21 standpoint, having gone through mediation and seeing
22 where the parties are and where they are not.
23 Of being more comfortable with that option.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Does it cost the party
25 that benefits from it anything to go to mediation?
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• 1 MR. COLBERT: I beg your pardon?
2 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Does it cost Jean Metts
3 anything to go to mediation?
4 MR. COLBERT: If she's a party, the Court
5 normally requires the parties to split the cost of
6 the mediator's fee.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So basically what we're
8 saying is Unless she is named as a party we're
9 probably not going to mediation?
10 MR. COLBERT: Probably not.
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And how soon would
12 mediation occur, do you think?
• 13 MR. COLBERT: Probably within sixty days. Is
14 that a fair statement?
15 MS. REISCHMANN: That is fair. If you can get
16 a hearing officer, a mediator on it.
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But in the meantime
18 they're going to still seek this injunction.
19 MR. COLBERT: Yes, I would expect that the
20 injunction would be entered or at least heard by the
21 Court in the next couple of weeks. Prior to the
22 fourteenth of February.
23 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: But, Bill, I thought you
24 were saying something about you can accept the
25 injunction or something where we wouldn't be
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1 spending money to defend against an injunction that
2 you were saying you think they're going to get?
3 MR. COLBERT: Yes, if you -all authorize us to
4 either not contest or to agree to the imposition of
5 an injunction, we still would probably wind up going
6 to a hearing; but we would not be doing exhaustive
7 research and trying to defend against an
8 injunction.
9 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: Right.
10 MR. COLBERT: And incurring additional fees
11 doing that.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You mean if we just
13 volunteered to say Okay we'll study this thing?
14 MR. COLBERT: If the instruction from the
15 Commission would be for us as legal counsel to not
16 oppose the entry of an injunction and to seek
17 mediation.
18 That would short -cut some of the things that we
19 would have to do go get- -
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Would Jean Metts have a
21 case against us if we did that?
22 MR. COLBERT: No.
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: We wouldn't, if it
24 prevented her from opening?
25 MR. COLBERT: I think what we would be saying
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•
1 is that we are willing as a City to preserve the
2 status quo, for the Court to look at all of the
3 allegations and reach a decision on the merits.
4 And I don't think that that exposes us, by
5 itself, to any attorneys' fees and court costs or
6 damages.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Mac, any comments?
8 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: No.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Any comments, Velma?
10 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: No.
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Whitey?
12 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Yes, I have a solution,
• 13 hopefully.
14 The...When this matter came before us as a City
15 Commission there were a couple of things that, as I
16 was sitting there I was not aware of.
17 One I did become aware of and the other one I
18 still haven't. I'm waiting for the City Manager to
19 give me that answer.
20 And I haven't heard from him yet. The first
21 one was that she came to the meeting saying that she
22 had, if I remember correctly, twelve parking
23 spaces.
24 Through Larry Dale's interrogation it was soon
25 determined, or after a while that she had none.
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I had committed to this variance waiver; and
2 like Larry said, that parking was a big part of my
3 consideration.
4 In fact, if you -all remember, before we took
5 the vote and the question was called Mrs. Metts
6 agreed and the City had asked her that she would try
7 to get the railroad to agree to give her these
8 parking spaces.
9 Having been on the record and having said that
10 I supported her, not being totally clear on how many
11 parking...how many parking spaces there were, I felt
12 in a position that I would have to go by my promises
• 13 to various people that I would support her.
14 The second thing I was not aware of, and I'm
15 going to ask Tony right now, because you've had
16 plenty of time:
17 How much money does she get for running this
18 operation? Could you answer that?
19 TONY VAN DERWORP: A net with salary or was
20 that operational money?
21 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Well, no, not
22 operational; I know what the operational money is.
23 I'm talking about salary.
24 TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, I didn't check into
25 her salary.
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1 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Now, I've asked you a
2 month ago to talk to Buddy Lelaze (All names spelled
3 phonetically) and other people and you have not done
4 that. Okay- -
5 TONY VAN DERWORP: I called Buddy to find out
6 if he knew- -
7 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Or Daryl McLain or
8 somebody could get you an answer. So --
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I did that. Do you want
10 the answer?
11 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I did check into it.
410 13 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And Daryl talked with
15 Buddy.
16 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: See? Thank you. And
17 that's what I told you to do.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And he called my office.
19 And she makes thirty thousand dollars.
20 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she pays her
22 daughter -in -law.
23 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: X amount of thousand
25 dollars. And that figure Buddy was going to get
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410 1 back to me; but he didn't.
2 So she and her daughter -in -law are both being
3 paid from the funds she receives from the grant.
4 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: That's what I read.
5 And, Tony, I'm a little disappointed that you
6 haven't, didn't get that information to me, because
7 while I was sitting there voting for this thing I,
8 at the time, parking was going through my mind.
9 But also, the question of self- interest. You
10 know, voting on this issue was based on helping the
11 community and having a volunteer organization coming
12 into the City, which a community can accept a lot
13 more easily sometimes than someone doing something
14 for profit.
15 And I think Ms. Metts is profiting by this;
16 and I think she is being rather recalcitrant in
17 trying to offer any type of mediation or compromise
18 because she would lose that salary.
19 I have offered and I've said and I've stated
20 publicly for the record and the newspaper that she
21 should maybe prepare her meals and have them
22 delivered somewhere else.
23 And that is what eventually I'm going to offer
24 Ms. Metts, because I'll tell you what I'm going to
25 do:
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• 1 What I'm going to do is, I'm going to...and I
2 hope for the sake of the City that I will go and be
3 prepared to go at the next meeting and, under the
4 rules of Robert's or what - have -you, the prevailing
5 side, and change my vote against Ms. Metts trying to
6 support that with -- having voted on that evidence, I
7 was not being negligent; it was just a time when
8 you, you just...there is no moment where you can go
9 out and settle some of these things on your
10 own...already being committed to the parking spaces
11 that were there, already understanding that she
12 would, you know, that she would try to get the
13 parking added to the twelve that she had or whatever
14 or she didn't have.
15 And I would be willing to make a motion there
16 to overturn this decision.
17 Now, bearing that in mind, I would hope that
18 maybe Ms. Metts, in trying to save, hopefully, to
19 feed a hundred people, maybe even more now, that she
20 would try to transport this food somewhere else,
21 caring for these people; and make her, you know,
22 and I think trying to make her understand that, you
23 know, if you don't do this you're going to lose this
24 income for you and your daughter -in -law; and
25 hopefully that she would use that as a conduit for
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1 delivering food some place already serving these
2 needs, like the Salvation Army.
3 So, I'm throwing this out for somebody...you
4 can tear me apart and - -but I've thought this over
5 for a long, long time. And I think that the best
6 way for the City to go is...is to say...and I'll
7 take the blunt of it, that I, as a City
8 Commisisoner, really in granting this variance, was
9 looking at the parking that she said she had, versus
10 the Mayor saying she had none.
11 She admitted she had none. I was already
12 committed to this vote. Also, I was also thinking
410 13 that she was not getting paid for this type of - -and
14 I think that makes a difference in how you look at
15 the programs, at these agencies and what they're
16 trying to provide.
17 So I'm going to throw that out. And see what
18 you guys have to say.
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Bill, I think,
20 wants to say something. And I think I know what
21 he's going to say; but I'll leave it to him to say.
22 MR. COLBERT: Two things: I appreciate very
23 much what Commissioner Eckstein has said. And I
24 understand what he said and the sincerity of what he
25 said.
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1 I have to look at it from a legal standpoint.
2 And I need to throw out a couple of legal
3 issues.
4 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Oh, let me interrupt
5 you.
6 MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
7 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: One second.
8 MR. COLBERT: Certainly.
9 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: What I've agreed,
10 if...if she agrees to move well pay her expenses of
11 moving her ovens if she goes some place.
12 I'm aware that she already has incurred
• 13 expenses. Okay? In setting this place up.
14 And I know she could sue us in light of this
15 decision. Now, I don't know if she can prove all of
16 these things that she put in there for the last two
17 weeks; I think anything before a certain date was
18 premature on her part.
19 And I don't think she would be allowed to
20 collect that. But be that as it may, I would rather
21 pay her for whatever she did, depending on our
22 decision or whatever.
23 And I think that's the - -and trying to find a
24 place for her to locate and all that. Bearing in
25 mind that she could sue us.
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1 I don't think there is a whole lot she could
2 collect. She could collect some.
3 But I think it would avoid a whole bunch of...I
4 think it's a win -win situation; because the City
5 Commission is sensitive to feeding hungry people.
6 But the City Commission is also sensitive that
7 this is...that this has gone into something where
8 the taxpayers are going to have to pay a lot of
9 money.
10 And chances are nothing is going to be settled
11 a year or two from now; and I think it puts us
12 more, even more in a vulnerable position.
• 13 I think this brings this to a conclusion real
14 quick. And if she wants to sue us for these things,
15 fine; but also remember that she is getting paid.
16 And I think she would be willing to listen. I
17 think we have a little bit of clout as far as her
18 income is concerned and her son -in -law's income or
19 her daughter -in -law's income.
20 And I'm sorry for interrupting. But I had to --
21 MR. COLBERT: No, that's all right. I wanted
22 you to have an opportunity- -
23 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Right.
24 MR. COLBERT: - -to express your position.
25 COMMISISONER ECKSTEIN: I wrote that down, by
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• 1 the way. I didn't make that up.
2 MR. COLBERT: You know, the whole purpose of
3 our being here is to have discussion and for us to
4 get into it.
5 But in getting into it we need to give input
6 from a legal standpoint.
7 And what I was going to say is I appreciate
8 what you had to say.
9 And I understand where you're coming from.
10 There are a couple of legal implications there that
11 I need to apprise you and the whole Commission on.
12 One, you mentioned Roberts' Rules of Order.
• 13 And a motion to reconsider under Roberts' Rules of
14 Order does have to be made by a person on the
15 prevailing side.
16 The other part of that is, it needs to be made
17 at the next meeting.
18 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: I said that.
19 MR. COLBERT: No, I mean at the next meeting
20 after the original action was taken.
21 And there have been several meetings of the
22 Commission more than thirty days- -
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I don't know that that is
24 a set tee, though, because I brought this up to MPO,
25 where they reconsidered a motion a month after they
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did it; and I brought it up and the Attorney said
2 Well, yeah, that's normally the case; but I'm not
3 too sure that a body can't, I mean they changed
4 their mind and everything...you know, at any time.
5 And so it --
6 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Do you have case law to
7 that effect?
8 MR. COLBERT: Well, no, but I am --
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, but he's right.
10 Normally the case -- either later at the same meeting
11 or at the next regularly held meeting.
12 MR. COLBERT: So, you know, the rest of what I
411 13 was going to say is that...So at least there is an
14 argument of the ability to do that.
15 I do concede that the Commission has some
16 latitude; but there is an argument against that.
17 And we are in litigation. Another thing that
18 concerns me from a legal standpoint is...and I know
19 that you're a man of your word.
20 And I'm not, I don't want you to misunderstand
21 what I'm saying. But by...by saying that you have,
22 that you had committed to some people a particular
23 vote, means, to a lawyer's standpoint, that...that
24 it is subject to attack in a quasi - judicial
25 proceeding; because you had a preconceived idea or
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• 1 commitment there not based on the record that was
2 there.
3 And so that is another- -
4 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Yes, and that's what I
5 feel most uncomfortable with because in my mind,
6 when - -and that vote was based on parking that would-
7 - -and you have to admit there was some question
8 about the parking that was going in there.
9 And a reasonable person would say that if there
10 was a question about the parking, even though Ms.
11 Metts says Well, you know, maybe I don't have any
12 parking, and Larry says, you know, and they go back
• 13 and forth, because, you know, even the Mayor at one
14 time thought they had twelve parking...it became a
15 question in my mind, and it's awfully hard to
16 reverse yourself, because that came up at, you know,
17 the last part of the meeting. Granted.
18 MR. COLBERT: Yes, but- -
19 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: And I understand what
20 you're saying, is that, yes- -
21 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Well, within three
22 hundred feet of there you've got at least twelve
23 designated parking spaces.
24 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: And, yes- -
25 MR. COLBERT: Again, what I'm saying is --
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• 1 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: But, but the Land
2 Development Code, though, see, it violates the Land
3 Development Code.
4 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: How does it violate
5 the Land Development Code, when the parking is --
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, those parking
7 spaces that you're talking about along the Jaycee
8 Park- -
9 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: That's right.
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: They were designated
11 specifically by this Commission to Jones Electric,
12 specifically, in the minutes.
• 13 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Well- -
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Not to Jean Metts
15 Enterprises and not to the public.
16 Specifically, they were designated to Jones
17 Electric.
18 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Well, that would be
19 attack -able to myself, but- -
20 COMMISSIONER LESSARD: By talking to people
21 about it and committing before, you see, we didn't
22 try the evidence.
23 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Oh, I understand it.
24 No, I didn't try the evidence; but the evidence
25 that we had brought before us was already in the
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1 record, that she had twelve spaces.
2 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let's let him
3 finish his train of thought, then we'll come back
4 and discuss our train of thoughts.
5 MR. COLBERT: So, I guess what I'm saying is
6 that that, to a lawyer- -
7 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Right.
8 MR. COLBERT: -- creates another legal argument
9 and another problem for us to try to deal with.
10 But the third aspect of it, again, from the
11 legal standpoint is that there is an argument that
12 the Commission has made a decision and the
• 13 Commission does not have jurisdiction at this point
14 to reverse that jurisdiction, because it has been
15 appealed and gone to the Court.
16 It is a decision made for which we cannot
17 reverse ourselves because of lack of jurisdiction.
18 It is like, you know, a court case, where new
19 evidence comes out at a later time while a case is
20 on appeal.
21 You know, you would almost have to get,
22 arguably, from a legal standpoint, get it sent back
23 down for further proceedings through certiorari or
24 something, for the Commission to have an ability to
25 change a decision that is already made and gone
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• 1
forward; and it not being at the next meeting at a
2 regularly scheduled meeting to do it.
3 So, while I understand what you're saying and I
4 don't disagree with what you're saying...and I...and
5 I appreciate where you're coming from in wanting to
6 save the City some expense.
7 From a legal standpoint it probably also
8 presents an opportunity to complicate matters even
9 more.
10 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Well, why don't you
11 just settle the suit, then?
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, my question was,
410 13 Can we say Look, we're just not...we're not going to
14 defend it because we think it's indefensible.
15 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Right.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It's going to cost our
17 taxpayers dollars for nothing. And what will it
18 take, you know, for you not to sue us over this?
19 MR. COLBERT: Meaning the Plaintiffs?
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Meaning, no, no -- yes - -No,
21 meaning Metts.
22 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: Metts. Let me ask a
23 question, then. If suddenly the railroad gave the
24 parking and based on the Mayor's statement on two or
25 three occasions, that he would have reacted
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• 1 differently, had this been in the plan...What would
2 be the approach of the five representatives here on
3 the lawsuit then?
4 Let's say if the railroad comes through and
5 says you do, you can have the parking, then what
6 reaction, then what path of action do we take?
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think we would have to
8 agree to reconsider the hearing, then, and look and
9 see how many -- because I've not seen the site plan.
10 I don't know how - -I'm saying it would have affected
11 my thinking on it.
12 Because I would have then been asking questions
• 13 like How many parking places can you get?
14 What is the traffic circulation of that
15 parking? Is it, does it meet our requirements, you
16 know, the minimum spaces and all the Land
17 Development criteria?
18 I mean the fact that the railroad comes back
19 and says Okay, you can use it for parking, wouldn't
20 in and of itself mean anything until we reconvened
21 and had our staff staff it, brought it back to us to
22 consider, how many parking spaces she could get out
23 of it and what the ingress and egress and the
24 traffic safety, all the site, distance requirements
25 and all of that stuff would have to be looked at.
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1 And you're talking about doing something in a
2 short order that she has tried to do, or she says
3 for months or maybe a year.
4 COMMISSIONER ECKSTEIN: Well, those spaces,
5 she has always been on record saying that- -
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Fourteen in fact is what
7 she said.
8 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I'm sorry.
9 Yes. Like I said, I didn't know exactly. I
10 couldn't remember.
11 But she has always said that, you know, because
12 of her unique type of enterprise that she didn't use
• 13 many because of the number of people that would be
14 walking there.
15 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: But how can we ignore
16 those spaces? that you say we created for Jones
17 Electric?
18 And I was on the Commission. I would have to
19 see the minutes.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I pulled them, Mac,
21 and- -
22 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: But we made it a
23 public parking area.
24 And how can we do that...How can we do that for
25 one business and say it's not available for public
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• 1 parking?
2 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Mac, you didn't
3 make it public parking. You told them...and in
4 fact, you told them they had to concrete those
5 spaces.
6 For some reason or another they never concreted
7 the spaces.
8 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Right, we
9 told them not to --
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But it was specifically
11 for Jones Electric set aside, not for the public.
12 In fact, if the public used it Jones Electric
• 13 could have come and complained to you and said Hey,
14 you set those aside for me.
15 So, you did not set them aside as public
16 parking spaces.
17 You did not pave them, you did not mark them;
18 you did not in any way make them safe - -you know,
19 that meet our mandatory- -
20 COMMISSIONER McCLANAHAN: - -and deny everybody
21 else parking- -
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: And it
23 didn't, you know, and I don't think we intended to
24 have that carried over with- -
25 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, the
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• 1 same thing could happen to us there that happened to
2 us over on --
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, sure, you could be
4 in another lawsuit on that for setting aside what is
5 public right -of -way for private use.
6 MR. COLBERT: That's how it sounds. Because
7 we own the property in there, too.
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, the only - -The
9 taxpayers own it. The public owns it. That's what
10 I'm talking about.
11 MR. COLBERT: Well, I'll tell you- -
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Those are not wise things
• 13 to do, in my opinion, to ever let private uses of
14 public rights -of -way, unless it is a special
15 district like downtown, which is a traditional use
16 since downtowns were created.
17 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, let
18 me, I want - -Let me say something again.
19 Let me state for the record: What she
20 attempted to do, and the place that she attempted to
21 put it, I think I have no problem with.
22 I have driven by there so many times...I have
23 had, asked friends of mine just to take a look at it
24 and say - -I think the Historic District saying that
25 the values of their homes will decline and all
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• 1 that...I pulled one of the people's, the amount of
2 money that he paid for his home and what he's asking
3 now and what he's a in in taxes and all that.
P Y g
4 I think we can defend that as far as property
5 values are concerned.
6 Their property values have skyrocketed compared
7 to the decrease in my property value.
8 And I've put a lot of money into the house. So
9 I don't want to hear about the property values. And
10 I, I think if you're going to put it some place in
11 the Historic District, that would be the place to
12 put it.
• 13 The County is the one that put us in that
14 position. We did not put ourselves in this
15 position.
16 Now, since she did not meet the Land
17 Development Codes, all right, and a variance was
18 asked...the parking was a big consideration in my
19 mind because I, I know, you know, you just
20 can't...and I think all of us agree you can't just
21 waive zero parking.
22 All right, I just, I don't' think you can. And
23 so, for the record, I think that this is a little
24 bit of hysteria on the part of these people here
25 making - -And I don't want to give in to them.
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4110 1 What I want to say is I just don't want this
2 City, I don't think it's worth, okay, the City to
3 feed a hundred people three times a week, to spend
4 fifty thousand dollars, when it looks like the City
5 probably will not prevail.
6 If we would prevail or something like that and
7 something could be worked out on the mediation - -But
8 she's not going to mediate.
9 I mean she doesn't have to mediate. I mean she
10 is, you know, she wants to keep her job. She wants
11 to sell food in there.
12 And that's why I was saying, threatening her
• 13 with changing my vote might make her amenable to
14 the - -to prepare food, then find some place already
15 that is serving food.
16 And they would qualify- -
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, and I, and normally
18 that might be okay. I'm afraid, though, and I'll
19 let Bill respond to this.
20 What I'm afraid of, Bill, is, if you threaten
21 somebody with doing it when you are under a lawsuit,
22 isn't there some legal thing there?
23 I mean I know I can't go, you know, in business
24 terms, I mean if I go and threaten someone in a
25 business deal-- -
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1
MR. COLBERT: It is a potential problem.
2 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I don't
3 think her salary was ever confidential. I mean most
4 people knew that they had gotten block grant money,
5 right?
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I don't think
7 hardly anybody knew that she was getting paid a
8 salary from the block grant.
9 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yeah, but- -
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She held it out to be a
11 volunteer - -In fact, the Chamber came to me and said,
12 "We're thinking about making her the Volunteer of
13 the Year."
14 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, see,
15 what threw me off- -
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I said, "Well, she's
17 not a volunteer."
18 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: She gave
19 Larry a letter one time.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: -- "She's getting paid."
21 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: - -that he
22 published in the paper or the paper published, that
23 said that - -and she was laughing in the back. "See
24 here, they say I make twenty five thousand dollars a
25 year. Isn't that," you know, "a bunch of crap."
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• 1 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, I knew, a
2 lot of people knew that she was getting paid.
3 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Remember
4 that? Remember that? No, I didn't know. I
5 thought- -
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She never announced that
7 she was a volunteer. But I mean the very name of
8 her firm, Seminole Volunteer Enterprises- -
9 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: The sixty
10 thousand dollars that the County gave her.
11 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I didn't
12 know she was getting paid.
• 13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What bothers me is, you
14 go to that building, and I've been there many times
15 since we started this thing.
16 The windows are broken out of it. Some of them
17 are barred up, some of them have got chicken wire
18 and stuff over it.
19 I mean it is, there has been no money spent on-
20 - -And we would not let anybody open a business of
21 any kind with the disrepair that that business is
22 in.
23 And what bothers me is, if by some fluke we won
24 this lawsuit - -and I don't think we will, but if by
25 some fluke we did, then you're going to have people
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2 way, I don't have any parking. But that doesn't
3 matter, because now, under your new regulations I
4 don't need any."
5 And we're going to be hard - pressed to turn them
6 down without them suing us, I think.
7 Is that not a possibility?
8 MR. COLBERT: That is an argument.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It's going to be a big
10 argument, I think.
11 And that scares me more than anything, that
12 we'll have bona fide restaurants trying to open- -
• 13 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: So, then,
14 we need to correct that.
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: That...because we've got
16 a lot of restaurants here that are not like some
17 restaurants, like Logan's, where they spend millions
18 of dollars to build these things.
19 We've got a lot of restaurants here that are a
20 mom - and -pop thing, that are trying to do just like
21 Jean Metts did, get by on a shoestring. And- -
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, she
23 doesn't have a license yet, Larry.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But she is, I'm telling
25 you, she has already had some - -She is already
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• 1 operating, is what I'm telling you.
2 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, that
3 doesn't mean- -
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You're right, she doesn't
5 have a license yet.
6 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: She doesn't
7 have a license yet.
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She has not installed the
9 hoods yet, but she is --
10 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: She still has a
11 restaurant - -Is she selling food?
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It doesn't matter. By
• 13 her own admission, she said, "I'm not a soup
14 kitchen. I'm a restaurant." And in order to sell
15 food- -
16 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How does
17 she get paid?
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Under our regulations
19 she's a restaurant.
20 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: From the County.
21 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, no,
22 does she get - -Does she serve just one meal a week or
23 three?
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, see, I don't know
25 how she's going to get paid when she opens the
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• 1 restaurant. I don't know what that thing will be.
2 Right now, just for the food distribution,
3 twice a month, she does it twice a month. She gets
4 paid thirty thousand and her daughter -in -law gets
5 paid- -
6 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
7 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, that's just
8 the food distribution, isn't it?
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Pardon?
10 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: That is the first
11 time that occurred? Hasn't she- -
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, she's been getting
13 paid ever since she started doing it down there at --
14 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I'm in agreement.
15 That's what I'm saying. Why is that so --
16 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, the
17 first year she didn't get - -When she first started- -
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, when she started
19 she was a volunteer.
20 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, that's what
21 I'm saying. People should have been aware that she
22 was getting paid.
23 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: All right.
24 Well- -
25 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: So it's not that -
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1 _
2 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, let
3 me just say this- -
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The last couple of years
5 down there she was- -
6 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Jean, I
7 was at a meeting with her after a City Commission,
8 that thing the County put me on, that Community
9 Service Block Grant.
10 And we deal with poor people. And she works
11 with poor people generally. I mean she - -at the
12 Mental Health Clinic we have a thing down there
411 13 where we meet.
14 And she is a good person. I'm not trying to
15 say, I'm not trying to say that she shouldn't get
16 paid- -
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think she- -
18 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: - -It's not
19 a monetary thing, but I'm just, what I'm...What I'm
20 saying to you is --
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I think she is a little
22 mean - spirited, but I think her intentions are good.
23 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: She would get the
24 thirty thousand dollars whether she was right there
25 or not...wherever she would be, right?
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• 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Probably so.
2 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, see,
3 the thing about it is, when she started distributing
4 the food she had no parking there either.
5 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: She did, she had...well,
6 she did at Zayre's. She had that whole parking lot
7 down there.
8 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, sir,
9 I'm talking about at the railroad station.
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Oh, yes.
11 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Do you see
12 what I'm saying? So, your whole thinking is, going
13 into a meeting, she already had some parking there
14 already; and it was just added to it.
15 Do you understand what I'm saying, Bill?
16 MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir, I do.
17 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I mean it's
18 logical that parking was something that, you know,
19 was a big deal, but yet, you go there right now and
20 you would have people parking in front.
21 But it's all, it's in the railroad right -of-
22 way, which we subsequently know now.
23 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Actually, it's
24 right across from the School Board, the other School
25 Board Office there? Right across the street?
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• 1 That's where I park when I go there.
2 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Oh, yes,
3 umm -hmm.
4 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: By the building
5 right there, right across, I park there, right
6 across from there.
7 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, what
8 could we do to settle this suit?
9 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: See, that,
10 the way I look at it, I mean it's...there needs to
11 be a sense of closure on this deal.
12 And as cheaply and as fairly as we can do it, I
13 think, is the best for all involved.
14 I mean I, the salary of Jean Metts, I mean
15 personally I don't believe you should ever profit
16 from poverty.
17 I just, that is just something I've always- -
18 I've always felt that way.
19 And Jean is not the only one in that industry
20 or business or whatever you want to say, you know,
21 but whether her salary, that, you know, that is kind
22 of a lesser issue to me.
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's not an issue
24 in the lawsuit, to me. The issue in the lawsuit is-
25 -
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1 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, you
2 know, there are a lot of people that have done- -
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -she has no parking.
4 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: There are a
5 lot of people that have gotten upset on both sides.
6 I mean, you know, poems have been written about
7 you. Jean says I've got a conflict of interest,
8 well, come on, you know, I'm not drawing a salary
9 from the issue we're talking about, so, the conflict
10 of interest?
11 I mean the folks - -I'm just trying to articulate
12 all the people that are involved in this emotionally
• 13 or, you know, there is --
14 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay. Is
15 there a place in the City- -
16 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: But let me
17 finish one thing, Whitey.
18 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Oh, I'm
19 sorry. I thought you were through.
20 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: The thing
21 that I think has hurt me the most is...is to have
22 really good- hearted people portrayed as folks that
23 don't like poor folks.
24 Grace and Grits has been operating every
25 Wednesday night for, and I believe it's the
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1 Episcopal Church, right in the heart of the Historic
2 District without a peep.
3 It is...it is not, you know, granted, there are
4 some nuts on both sides of this deal.
5 But I think collectively when we look at this
6 lawsuit - -I mean we've got to settle the thing.
7 I mean all of the other issues are just kind of
8 on the fringe of the thing.
9 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How's about
10 this? All right. These people are suing us,
11 DeSantis and, et cetera.
12 Can we work with Jean Metts to find a place
13 that she could carry on the same operations, let the
14 Historic District try to develop it into apartments
15 or whatever the hell they want to do?
16 And are there any properties here that we could
17 relocate or where we could feed these poor people
18 and also distribute the food and satisfy these
19 people.
20 And, you know, if it's next to me, you know, I,
21 I will...you know, if it is in my district, that's
22 fine.
23 I think- -
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, your neighbors
25 might not agree to that.
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1 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, I
2 understand that, but, you know, I, I feel badly- -
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There are places and
4 properties, yes, the Salvation Army, for instance.
5 They've got an enormous building, and they can
6 handle it. They've got parking.
7 MR. COLBERT: They are two blocks from my home
8 and have been ever since they opened, and I've never
9 had anybody come in my yard or --
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So why would Jean Metts
11 not team up with them?
12 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, why
• 13 wouldn't she team up with them, Mac? That's
14 something I can't understand. And this whole
15 problem would go away.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Why would another
17 building be needed?
18 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: What?
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I say Why would another
20 building be needed if these agencies teamed up with
21 each other?
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Right.
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: To provide these things?
24 Because the Salvation Army does not feed people on a
25 regular basis.
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1 They only do it during emergencies.
2 MR. COLBERT: No, they do, oh, yes, they do
3 Meals on Wheels.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Meals on Wheels,
5 yes, but I'm talking about as a restaurant there at
6 their facility.
7 The other thing is --
8 MR. COLBERT: If they put a restaurant down
9 there those employees do get paid for it.
10 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: The other
11 thing is, you know, all the properties within the
12 City are on the warpath. I mean if we put folks in-
410 13 -I mean the Salvation Army deal, when I talked to
14 Jean about it, it is more centrally located, the bus
15 lines, I mean, you know.
16 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Wouldn't
17 that be, wouldn't that kind f discussion be
18 something that could come up in settlement?
19 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: At the
20 mediation it could- -
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I don't know
22 whether it could or not. I don't think we have the
23 legal right to tell her she has to - -I mean we could
24 offer it.
25 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
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• 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But...but she doesn't
2 have to agree to it.
3 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Right.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I doubt very
5 seriously she would. I don't think we have the
6 legal right to go to somebody and say You need to
7 sell your building or you should have never taken
8 it.
9 Now, to me, I don't think they're going to make
10 a big issue of the fact- -You created your own
11 hardship.
12 You you took a piece of property that had no
13 parking."
14 MR. COLBERT: And it never had any parking.
15 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, it
16 never had any parking.
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But it has never been
18 used as a restaurant. "You took a piece of
19 property - -You took a piece of property that you knew
20 wasn't going to meet the Land Development
21 Regulations."
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, I
23 didn't know that.
24 MR. COLBERT: I don't think she knew.
25 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I don't think she
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• 1 knew, either.
2 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Did you
3 know that? You didn't know that.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, I knew it. Sure, I
5 knew it --
6 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Also, what I
7 considered was that approval had been given to her- -
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I knew it didn't meet
9 our regulations, didn't have enough parking places.
10 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: - -for the
11 distribution.
12 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I'm talking
13 about the program for distribution.
14 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: The distribution,
15 this is what I'm looking at, one of the things:
16 Permission had been given to her to operate that
17 food distribution center.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: That's not what this suit
19 is about.
20 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I know, but what
21 I'm saying, with some consideration or the idea that
22 more people, you know, pass through there, whether
23 they go in and buy it or not as a result of that
24 food distribution than they would going there to
25 eat.
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• 1 Those sort of things that I thought about. I
2 said, Now, you know, what, what is the problem here?
3 You approved a food distribution. Well,
4 hundreds of people pass through that.
5 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, but only twice a
6 month, you know.
7 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: But hundreds of
8 people pass through that.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Twice a month.
10 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: And then, you
11 know, I don't know what- -
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There is a whole lot of
13 difference between twice a month and five times a
14 week.
15 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: But even
16 that, though, is dangerous. I mean even those days,
17 it's dangerous over there.
18 And- -
19 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Would the
20 Salvation Army be willing to work with Jean Metts?
21 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: See, that's
22 my whole point on this whole deal, if --
23 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Or some
24 other organization?
25 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: - -if their
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1 true intentions are to help folks, you would think
2 that working together would be the goal.
3 I don't know if there is a loss of funding on
4 either end if they merge or whatever. But they've
5 got a huge facility there, plenty of parking, you
6 know.
7 I don't know.
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I don't know if
9 they've got plenty of parking but they've got
10 parking.
11 MR. COLBERT: Just to follow up on something
12 that the City Manager said, and that is kind of
• 13 bouncing around a little bit...There seems to be
14 some desire by some of the Commission at least to
15 look at potentially other avenues or other ways,
16 other venues, to solve the problems, such as her
17 problem with the Salvation Army and finding some
18 other facility or something that at least
19 potentially could solve the problem.
20 If the Commission chose to do it, you could
21 have us basically be instructed to try to facilitate
22 ...either not oppose the temporary injunction or to
23 agree to it.
24 Try to get to mediation as timely as we can.
25 In the meantime, instruct the staff to look at
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2 alternatives.
3 And when we go to mediation we could lay those
4 alternatives out in the presence of a mediator and
5 may have some...some assistance from a mediator in
6 selling alternatives.
7 And even if those alternatives aren't accepted,
8 it demonstrates to the Court at least a good -faith
9 effort on the City's part to solve the problem.
10 And then if we...if we don't get it solved, but
11 then choose not to go forward from that point, at
12 least I have more comfort in the City's legal
• 13 position there.
14 I mean that may be something you want to
15 consider and decide whether we should have their- -
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, let's take them one
17 at a time.
18 MR. COLBERT: Okay.
19 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Mr. McClanahan
20 had a comment.
21 MR. COLBERT: Well, then she needs...then she
22 needs to be made aware by Tony or somebody that the
23 parking doesn't mean...nothing -- anything.
24 That if she gets parking from the railroad,
25 that it means nothing, absolutely nothing.
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• 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, nobody said that,
2 Mac- -
3 MR. COLBERT: Oh, bull.
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I just told you a while
5 ago, I still have to --
6 MR. COLBERT: Bull.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: - -look at the layout of
8 the parking for this. We still have to have
9 another hearing.
10 MR. COLBERT: You haven't had any concern about
11 that, have you? about the parking? Whether it
12 has one or --
13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Mac, that is the whole
14 issue, to me. How could you sit there and say that?
15 The fact that she has zero parking is the whole
16 issue.
17 I don't understand how you could sit there and
18 say that.
19 MR. COLBERT: I just don't believe that.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Are you calling me a
21 liar?
22 MR. COLBERT: No, I'm not calling you a liar,
23 Larry.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, you say you don't
25 believe it.
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'0 1 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Mac, did you
2 get the parking, and the little site plan comes in
3 and it works? Then we've got no right to interfere
4 with her- -
5 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The whole issue, to me,
6 is the fact that she has zero offstreet parking.
7 Zero. And that violates our Land Development
8 Regulations to the extent that we put ourselves in
9 endangerment for other people coming in and seeking
10 the same thing.
11 MR. COLBERT: Then she needs to be let aware,
12 made aware whether the parking would make a
• 13 difference in our reaction.
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it would make a
15 difference. I said it would make a difference.
16 But not just the fact that all of a sudden CSX
17 says she - -I would have to look at it and see what
18 kind, then, of a significant variance that would be
19 and look at those six elements of it and look at all
20 of the safety...site distance and all the other
21 things, the layout.
22 And see if they are bona fide parking that
23 meets the regulations we would require of anybody
24 else. That is the test of it.
25 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask
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• 1 just one question. I'm unclear. When you say a
2 variance, you are not making exceptions?
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Excuse me?
4 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: When you are
5 considering a variance, you're not making
6 exceptions?
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: You are, yes, you are
8 making exceptions to your Land Development
9 Regulations, based on those six criteria and the
10 significance of how much that variance is.
11 What we did in this case, we varied it all the
12 way down to zero, which is a complete waiver.
• 13 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, one of
14 those, in my opinion, is...is subjective to personal
15 opinion and philosophy.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, this doesn't say if
17 you meet any one of them. It says that you have to
18 meet all six of them- -
19 MR. COLBERT: All of them. Okay.
20 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Is another
21 avenue, maybe, to consider, is to talk to our County
22 Commissioner?
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: About what? I've already
24 talked to him.
25 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
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• 1 About...in their helping us, you know- -
2 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I don't want to
3 hear about anybody bringing any pressure on anybody
4 for doing things.
5 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, no, no.
6 What I'm saying is, if we --
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I can tell you
8 this: If --
9 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: If we can
10 get Jean Metts to agree- -
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Jean Metts refused to
12 divulge her finances, which the County is required
13 to do anyway.
14 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay. Yes.
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It raised hackles over
16 there not only with the Commissioners but with the
17 staff, who said Wait a minute, she has to divulge
18 her finances.
19 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, because
20 that is public information.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she didn't do it.
22 She refused to do it.
23 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, see,
24 this is what I'm saying. If the County Commission
25 said to Jean, Listen, you know, if we help you find
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• 1 another piece of property or whatever, to deliver
2 this food and to cook, you know, we want to help the
3 City because the City is in a situation right now
4 which is, you know, essentially could cost them a
5 lot of money.
6 Is there any way that- -
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I doubt that...I doubt
8 that they would, because several of them have
9 already said, "That's not our problem. That's the
10 City's."
11 Our District Commissioner probably would, but I
12 doubt there would be a majority voter there to do
• 13 that, because they don't want to jump into a
14 potential liability situation.
15 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I see.
16 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: That would
17 normally be something, see, if we were talking about
18 settlement mediation, that...not having it there,
19 but that party finding another spot to do it, we
20 would be able to have Ms. Metts make that as a
21 settlement offer.
22 And that would be something she would have to
23 go do.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, understand, that
25 building is not owned by the County. They gave it
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• 1 to her and a hundred and seventy thousand dollars
2 from Community Development Block Funds to renovate
3 it.
4 Now, I don't know what she spent that on. But
5 like I say, the windows are broken out of it.
6 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: There is
7 another facility for that.
8 And that is another thing, Tony, with these
9 County properties, we have got to get on the same
10 page with them. Because, you know, there is --
11 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, why don't
12 you just do whatever the Historic District wants you
• 13 to do and let's just resolve it?
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Like how?
15 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Whatever it is
16 that the Historic District wants you to do.
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, what they want- -
18 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Whatever they
19 want us to do.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, what the lawsuit
21 is, they want it to go away. They don't want her to
22 operate a restaurant.
23 MR. COLBERT: But she could continue to operate
24 the food distribution.
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, yes, I don't
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1 think...This lawsuit doesn't affect the
2 distribution, does it, Bill?
3 MR. COLBERT: No.
4 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: No.
5 MR. COLBERT: No, it doesn't affect the
6 distribution.
7 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: So it doesn't affect the
8 distribution.
9 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Supposing
10 they sued us on the food distribution?
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, then, that would
12 be another thing. I mean I think they have waited
• 13 so long - -I mean they may have a case and they may
14 not. I don't know.
15 They would have to sue us on some kind of
16 damages issue of, you know- -
17 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: They would
18 have to put a case together and go down there on a --
19 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I think, as I
20 said, again...I don't know, but I guess if it's not
21 illegal, that our Attorney should talk to Jean
22 Metts.
23 Not advise her...I'm not talking about advising
24 her.
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I think he will if
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• 1 we say we want to go to mediation.
2 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Talk with her,
3 and then...I just don't believe...I don't know her
4 extremely well, but, number one, I don't believe
5 that she would disobey a court order, number one.
6 Number two, I believe that if she understands
7 all of these ramifications and has time to think
8 about it that she would much rather operate a food
9 distribution, after thinking about it, similar, you
10 know, minus the restaurant thing and not have the
11 building at all.
12 And not have an operation at all. That's what
410 13 I'm thinking.
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I think you're
15 right.
16 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: That's what I'm
17 thinking. That's what I'm saying, you know.
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But it really scares me
19 for the Attorney to go talk to her and for her to
20 try to claim we're trying to put pressure on her by
21 sending a Lawyer over there.
22 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Oh?
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It scares me that she
24 has- -
25 MR. COLBERT: Yes, I have the same feeling
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• 1 about that.
2 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Okay. Well,
3 okay. Well, maybe- -
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: With the Legal Aid
5 Services and everything and this and that.
6 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Central
7 Florida Legal Services.
8 MR. COLBERT: Central Florida Legal Services is
9 the one.
10 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, maybe if
11 the Lawyer could prepare five or six, you know, a
12 billet for you to go and make sure she understands
• 13 those. That's all. I don't know her, you know,
14 that well.
15 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: I think she
16 understands this, because she has been involved with
17 development permitting and- -
18 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, all I'm
19 talking about is what the situation is, just like,
20 let me tell you this right here: Just like she got
21 up the other night, okay?
22 That basically is not Ms. Metts, not the Ms.
23 Metts that I know.
24 Okay? And out of fear...I'm not justifying,
25 okay? Out of fear, out of whatever it is that she,
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• 1 she - -she read something that somebody gave her.
2 She has to suffer the consequences. And she
3 knows that, because they didn't force her to read
4 it.
5 And I feel that as we get into this, I think
6 she's going to think somewhat differently then.
7 She is going to think about the advantages and
8 disadvantages. I just feel that somehow- -
9 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Her
10 Attorneys want to enter "race" into the situation in
11 front of the Judge; and that was it.
12 And she read it, and that...and that was the
• 13 whole idea, because she was hoping that if "race"
14 entered into it that a judge would be more favorable
15 in a ruling.
16 They want to add one more thing to the whole
17 thing.
18 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, I see, I
19 understand that.
20 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Here is
21 what I want to say: You know, and I could kill
22 myself, because in looking at this thing I, the
23 Historic District and all that, I'm very conscious
24 of it, and I think the other night I made my point.
25 I still think the Historic District is out of
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• 1 line. I think there is no better place to have
2 this thing if - -than where it's at.
3 What I got screwed up with was this
4 Development, you know, our Land Regulations. And
5 I'm looking at this thing and I'm thinking we can,
6 with the waiver- -
7 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Yes.
8 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: - -and, you
9 know, we've done variances before. And we've looked
10 very, like you said, subjectively.
11 And instead of strict interpretation like my
12 two attorney friends...loose interpretation...but
• 13 you know, with this parking, that's - -when I went
14 home that night, that's what I felt bad about. And
15 the following days, you know, and then talking to
16 you and all that and, you know, I'm seeing what you
17 said in the paper about, you know, this is all
18 about...and, you know, I tended more to agree with
19 you, because, you know, we did, I personally
20 violated something I don't want to do. And I did it
21 because I wasn't sharp enough that night really to
22 explore that parking thing.
23 And I should have tabled it and asked everybody
24 to go back to the drawing board.
25 You know, and I, I feel badly.
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1 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, it,
2 somewhere it was stated that there were twelve,
3 eight to twelve parking spaces.
4 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well,
5 actually it was fourteen. It was something like
6 that.
7 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I mean something
8 was stated there. And I looked at it like that.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, upon questioning
10 about that she said -- I said, "How many parking
11 spaces do you have ?"
12 And she said, "I have none."
13 And actually she has none. And when it goes to
14 court they're going to prove that she has- -
15 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: What twelve
16 parking spaces she was talking about?
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Fourteen.
18 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: What fourteen?
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, she's got some on
20 CSX, she was counting some on the public right -of-
21 way and- -
22 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Well, we
23 would do it for Jones Electric, but we wouldn't do
24 it for- -
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: See, the problem is, we,
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1 we did not require of her a site - -and that's another
2 thing, if I was their Attorney I would attack - -we
3 require of everybody else a site plan that verifies
4 where their parking is.
5 We did not do that. We've never required her
6 to submit a site plan.
7 And we require everybody else to.
8 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: We asked
9 for it on numerous occasions- -
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And she never gave it to
11 us --
12 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: - -and she
• 13 never gave it to us, and never gave- -
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And normally, what you
15 would have done, if it had been me or what the
16 County would have done -- because I've dealt with them
17 before.
18 They would have never, it would have never gone
19 to the Commission. It would have never gone to P
20 and Z until they had the site plan.
21 They would say, "Bring us the site plan, we'll
22 schedule it with P and Z. No site plan, no P and
23 Z
24 We took it to P and Z anyway without a site
25 plan. That is another thing they're going to attack
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• 1 us on.
2 Because if you had the site plan it would have
3 been clear, Whitey, to everybody: "Hey, they have
4 zero parking."
5 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: And in
6 order to, well, I guess we can't go back and have
7 another hearing and undo that, based upon the
8 Attorneys' advice.
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, he advised you not
10 to. You could do it.
11 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: We could do
12 it.
• 13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It's like I said at the
14 hearing, I kept saying, "Yeah, you have the power to
15 do that. When it gets to the Court over there they
16 may tell you you didn't have the right."
17 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: And then,
18 secondly, what I'm hearing is that, well, if we're
19 ever going to get to the point where we bring Metts
20 to the table to talk about options, the only real
21 way to do that is to have those injunctions occur
22 and go to mediation, because then that brings her
23 into it, when she is not really into it right now.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, it's going to bring
25 her into it whether they name her anyway, if we
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1 agree to the injunction or if the injunction
2 happens.
3 Because either then she is either going to have
4 to come into it or she is not ever going to be able
5 to operate.
6 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, I
7 think that this is the only way we can go.
8 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: That's the
9 only way to bring her to the table, is to --
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I can tell you, my
11 other thoughts is this:
12 Up until this point, she has not been willing
• 13 to cooperate on anything, site plan, anything.
14 Because she knew in her own mind, "I got three
15 votes, regardless of what you -all want. And I'm
16 just not going to do it."
17 If you go back to her now and say You don't
18 have- -
19 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Three
20 votes.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: It might change her mind.
22 Is that possible, Bill, without us getting into
23 trouble?
24 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well,
25 that's what I said ten, fifteen minutes ago.
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411 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: I know, that's why I -
2 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask
3 him this question- -
4 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, wait a minute.
5 Let him answer that first.
6 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I'm sorry.
7 MR. COLBERT: I don't think that the
8 Commission intends to sit here and decide how they
9 would vote or not vote.
10 I mean that is not really what we're here to
11 do.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: What I'm saying is, she
• 13 doesn't have three votes for us to defend the
14 lawsuit- -
15 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: She is
16 trying to develop a consensus now, and that is --
17 MR. COLBERT: I understand that.
18 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
19 MR. COLBERT: Let me finish my train of
20 thought.
21 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay. I'm
22 sorry.
23 MR. COLBERT: I've listened to everything you -
24 all have said and I'm trying to take it to heart.
25 And I'm also trying to keep the record one that I
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• 1 can defend in this procedure.
2 I understand what Commissioner Eckstein has
3 said, what he said and what several of you have
4 said, that you know information now that you didn't
5 know then.
6 And looking at it now with the eyes and the
7 information you have now, you would view it
8 differently then if you knew all of that.
9 And that you may view it differently if you
10 have an opportunity to review it again in the
11 future.
12 And it is not unreasonable in some way for Mrs.
• 13 Metts to understand that. What I don't think the
14 Commission intends to do, and I wouldn't want the
15 record to even infer that, would be that we today in
16 this room decide how we would vote if it came back
17 to us and we had another chance to look at it.
18 I mean if it comes back to you in some way for
19 a vote, either the Court sends it back or some other
20 alternative is provided and you have a chance to
21 vote on a potential settlement or if other ways are
22 provided to provide the same services you would be
23 required then to look at what is before you on that
24 day and make a decision on that day. And so the
25 record needs to --
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41110 1 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And I think the parking
2 issue would come back with- -
3 MR. COLBERT: And so the record needs to be
4 clear that - -And if she understands that you have
5 some concerns and some misgivings, if she
6 understands, if that is the consensus of the
7 Commission, that you want to look for other avenues
8 to resolve it, that you expect her to be at the
9 table and mediate in good faith, and the City
10 intends to do that in good faith, there is nothing
11 wrong with communicating that to her.
12 Is that helpful? Do you understand what I'm
13 saying there?
14 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yep.
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Does anybody have
16 a problem with us not objecting to an injunction,
17 moving to mediation, having Tony go to Mrs. Metts
18 and say There are a lot of misgivings here on the
19 Commission and we want to look to avenues of
20 settlement; and we would expect you to be there at
21 mediation?
22 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, now,
23 can she legally come to mediation if they don't name
24 her as a Defendant?
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Voluntarily she could.
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• 1 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Oh, she can?
2 I don't know if she can or not.
3 MR. COLBERT: She could voluntarily. She could
4 ask to enter the case even if they don't bring her
5 into the case.
6 They could bring her into the case. Yes, they
7 could bring her into the case. We could seek to do
8 it - -We could seek to bring her into the case if we
9 chose to.
10 I think an easier avenue is for the Plaintiff
11 to seek to do that.
12 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right. And
• 13 it's cheaper for us to let them do that.
14 MR. COLBERT: Yes. That's one thing that makes
15 it easier for us as Attorneys.
16 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, I think you have
17 seen a consensus of at least three here, that we
18 don't want to spend a whole lot of money on this,
19 because we fear that our case is weak.
20 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I think all
21 of us agree, don't we? I should hope we would all
22 agree that we don't want to spend a lot of money for
23 a few thousand dollars.
24 MR. COLBERT: No.
25 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN:: No, but I
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2 precedent that all anybody has to do when they
3 disagree with three votes on the Commission is to
4 bring a lawsuit and that's the end of it.
5 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Right.
6 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: I would
7 hate for that to be perceived out there --
8 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: There is no precedent on
9 that, even if we, even if that were their
10 perception, there is no legal precedent that we
11 could just simply say the next time that you -all had
12 a very bad perception, because- -
13 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes.
14 MR. COLBERT: Well, based on what I've heard
15 from the Commission on a consensus basis, what we
16 will do is contact Plaintiffs' Counsel within the
17 next day or two through Mrs. Reischmann, who is in
18 the trenches on this; and we will communicate that
19 the consensus of the Commission is that we would not
20 oppose and perhaps we would join in a temporary
21 injunction if they seek a hearing before the Court
22 before the fourteenth.
23 And that we would support and agree to a court -
24 ordered mediation sooner in the case rather than
25 later if they bring her into the case.
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1 And then as we approach that mediation we would
2 try, from the City's standpoint, to have some
3 alternatives out there on the table for Mrs. Metts
4 to consider.
5 And go from there. The staff, I think, if that
6 is the consensus of the Commission, can go from here
7 and try to identify other alternatives and
8 communicate to Mrs. Metts the desire of the City to
9 explore those alternatives and be helpful.
10 And we will ask you for another Attorney- Client
11 Session should we feel the need to do so as we get
12 to a mediation and where we are on it.
110 13 Any settlement would have to be approved by you
14 before we could agree to it.
15 We could say to the mediator that would be
16 something we as the Attorneys for the City would
17 support and would recommend to the City Commission
18 but the City Commission would have to approve it.
19 And so I think that meets, if that's the
20 consensus of the Commission, that meets the
21 instruction that I needed.
22 Remember that what I needed today was to talk
23 to you concerning strategy in the case and potential
24 ways to control the cost.
25 I think the consensus you helped develop helps
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1 me try to control those costs and bring the case to
2 a quicker conclusion than we otherwise could.
3 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I have a
4 question, Bill.
5 MR. COLBERT: Yes, sir.
6 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: What would
7 happen...and I want to say this and this - -if we went
8 to DeSantis and them and got Mrs. Metts to agree to
9 serve once a week.
10 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Once a what?
11 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Once a
12 week.
• 13 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Oh, to the
14 Plaintiffs? I know it's hard for everybody on this
15 Commission to believe but I don't interact- -
16 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: You don't
17 know?
18 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: I don't
19 interact. On a legal level- -
20 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Okay.
21 Well, that's okay. No, I understand, but if she
22 went to once a week, okay?
23 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's one of the
24 avenues they could explore.
25 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well,
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1 that's my point, and that's my point. And that's
2 what we're here for, to brainstorm.
3 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes.
4 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: I mean, you
5 know, we got the sentiment that the community - -You
6 know, it's something to think about.
7 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right. I
8 absolutely agree with what you're saying.
9 MR. COLBERT: Except they would be of the
10 opinion if they gave you that point they would be
11 admitting that their lawsuit is frivolous.
12 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well- -
• 13 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, you never know,
14 Mac- -
15 MR. COLBERT: That is my interpretation of it.
16 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Well, if
17 we --
18 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: I'll tell
19 you this, Whitey, that is a question that could be
20 easily answered.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Throw the bone out on
22 everything, and the bone may come back on us.
23 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: That's
24 right. I mean, Larry, I hope these gentlemen
25 understand that, you know, they have to work with
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1 the City Commission, too; so I hope they are, you
2 know, that the recalcitrant is not there, and they,
3 that they would be willing to figure out something
4 with the City as good citizens.
5 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Oh, I agree
6 with you, Whitey, but I want you to understand I am
7 not going to carry that message to them.
8 I don't think I --
9 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: No, I
10 didn't ask you. I didn't ask you to carry that
11 message to them.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, Tony would do that.
• 13 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes.
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Or with the mediation,
15 throw that out- -
16 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, but
17 you're the District Commissioner; and I'm just
18 saying as a --
19 MR. COLBERT: That would be part of the
20 mediation, I would think.
21 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Yes.
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: An olive
23 branch, if you will.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes. Well, like I say,
25 the biggest concern I have is that if, if for some
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• 1 fluke or reason we won this thing or if it went
2 away, you know, because they dropped the suit, the
3 biggest concern I would have would be for other
4 entities coming forward and saying, "I don't have
5 any money for parking either. And since you let her
6 do it," that would really open up a can of worms.
7 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask
8 you, Why is that particular piece of land in the
9 Historic District? Is it generally in it --
10 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: They just
11 went all to French Avenue- -
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: They went and- -
13 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: They
• 14 squared off.
15 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: And see,
16 that was done long before you and I and Velma were
17 here. What they did- -
18 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: I don't know why
19 that warehouse is in the Historic District.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And you weren't here,
21 too.
22 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: I talked to
23 Andrew Mandell about it --
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Was that done while you
25 were here or --
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• 1 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: It was done
2 over my screaming.
3 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: What they
4 did, from what Andrew Mandell and Jay say is they
5 came up with that Historic District, you -all did
6 that- -
7 COMMISSIONER VELMA WILLIAMS: Umm -hmm.
8 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Then - -and
9 they drove through there and did all the
10 contributing to the Historical structures in it.
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, they didn't think
12 that was a contributing structure.
!II 13 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: It is a
14 scatter map, and you draw the boundaries around it.
15 You try to identify as many structures as you
16 can; and then just kind of square off the
17 boundaries and- -
18 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Yes, but
19 Mac, you didn't disagree with that. What you
20 disagreed with was the real strict Historic
21 Preservation Codes that were in effect.
22 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, that's true.
23 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: And that
24 the City Commission wouldn't get the final say.
25 That is what we fought over.
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• 1 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, I've
2 got one question- -
3 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: - -there was
4 a blond house over there...
5 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: We talked on
6 this voluntary, temporary injunction deal.
7 Now, are -- Because I think that's important to
8 have it articulated to us.
9 Who is going to be enforcing that? I mean- -
10 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: The Court is, the Court.
11 MR. COLBERT: The Court.
12 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: So who's
10 13 going to get served with the injunction?
14 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: We will- -
15 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: We will, or
16 Jean Metts? or both?
17 MR. COLBERT: All of the parties to the lawsuit
18 will be bound by the Court's issuance of an
19 injunction if the Court does that.
20 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And now that is just us
21 and the Plaintiffs.
22 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Correct. So
23 what I'm saying is, okay, right now, and you - -He is
24 talking about an injunction- -
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If they're smart...he's
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1 saying if they're smart, and what he thinks they're
2 going to do, they're going to join her in this
3 thing- -
4 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Prior to
5 them seeking an injunction, okay.
6 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: And that's probably what
7 is going to happen.
8 MS. REISCHMANN: We would be enjoined from the
9 Development Order issuing.
10 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right.
11 MS. REISCHMANN: Which is the parking variance.
12 We would be enjoined from issuing that, so to speak.
13 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: So, in a
14 hypothetical, where they don't enjoin Seminole
15 Volunteer Enterprises we, we would be left to
16 enforce the Court's injunction?
17 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: That's right.
18 MR. COLBERT: Yes.
19 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: And that's
20 all I'm saying.
21 MR. COLBERT: Yes, but we can't- -
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How do you
23 enforce it?
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Well, if we're under
25 court order, I mean, you know, we --
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1 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, how
2 are you going to - -I don't know.
3 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: Have the
4 police brought in?
5 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Well, we,
6 you know, we would have to go...we would have to go
7 with a Code Enforcement action; and if there is a
8 public assembly, I think we could shut that down;
9 because it is a public - assembly issue.
10 I think we can tape off the area, put a notice
11 up and- -
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But I don't think that's
• 13 going to happen. I think they're going to join her
14 in this thing and she's going to be under the
15 injunction, right?
16 MR. COLBERT: That's what I expect to happen.
17 That is what- -
18 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: If they're smart that's
19 what they will do.
20 MS. REISCHMANN: Well, if the order, if the
21 injunction order is issued, even if she is not in
22 it, then the Plaintiffs can go to the Court and say
23 she is violating it; and then the Court can enforce
24 the order.
25 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Yes, so you're going to
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1 have the Court in it anyway.
2 MR. COLBERT: Yes. What we want to do is, you
3 know, from the legal standpoint, is just have it
4 subject to the jurisdiction of the Court, so it is
5 not all the City's- -
6 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Right. I
7 just don't want to be found in contempt of court- -
8 MR. COLBERT: That's right. And we will
9 certainly do our best to see that that doesn't
10 happen.
11 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Anything else?
12 MR. COLBERT: Well, this concludes the private
411 13 part of this. We need to, when the Commission is
14 ready, we need to open it back as a public meeting
15 to officially adjourn and let me make a couple of
16 comments on the record.
17 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Well,
18 before we do that, my understanding of what took
19 place here stays here within our - -we don't go
20 discuss this with anybody.
21 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Oh, that's right.
22 MR. COLBERT: Yes, that's correct. This
23 meeting is a delayed broadcast.
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Other than the fact that
25 Tony has the authority to go back and meet with
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411 1 Jean.
2 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Yes, I
3 understand that.
4 MR. COLBERT: And we have a responsibility from
5 what you've done, to go put in effect what you've
6 said.
7 And you have a responsibility as Commissioners
8 not to go out and talk to your constituents- -
9 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Or to the press.
10 MR. COLBERT: - -what is done here.
11 CITY COMMISSIONER MAC MC CLANAHAN: Should we,
12 then, when we go back into the public session give
13 Tony the instructions on the public part of it?
14 MR. COLBERT: No, no, it doesn't have to be.
15 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: No, he can go ahead and
16 now do that, I think.
17 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN: How long is
18 the delayed broadcast?
19 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: That is what
20 I was going to - -now, what- -
21 MR. COLBERT: Until the end of the lawsuit.
22 CITY COMMISSIONER WHITEY ECKSTEIN; Right.
23 CITY COMMISSIONER BRADY LESSARD: Well, that
24 was my only question.
25 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: And then
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• 1 the other question I have is that, At which point in
2 time should I approach Metts with some of these
3 settlement options and what the Commission did here,
4 do I include them or wait until the injunction is
5 filed or --
6 MR. COLBERT: Let us, someone in our office
7 have just a day or two to digest what we've done
8 here; and then let us get with you and have a
9 discussion on the timing of it.
10 But I wouldn't do anything at nine o'clock in
11 the morning.
12 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: But brief all us before
• 13 you do that.
14 MR. COLBERT: I think it is something that we
15 will want to try to begin to accomplish within the
16 week.
17 CITY MANAGER MR. TONY VAN DERWORP: Yes, I
18 understand the importance of that last comment.
19 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Okay. Are we ready,
20 then, to open back to the public meeting?
21 MR. COLBERT: I think so.
22 (Thereupon the following proceedings were had
23 in public forum:)
24 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: All right. Having closed
25 the Executive, closed session, we will re -open this
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• 1 to the public meeting and, Bill, wrap it up. You
2 have the floor.
3 MR. COLBERT: Thank you, Mayor. I want to
4 thank the Commission for the time and attention that
5 you have provided us on this.
6 This meeting has taken approximately two hours,
7 a little longer than the hour to an hour and a half
8 that I predicted.
9 I do appreciate your input regarding settlement
10 negotiations and strategy relating to the
11 controlling of litigation expenditures. I thank you
12 for your input.
13 I think it has been helpful in that regard.
14 Mrs. Reischmann and I at this point will go forward
15 and try to put in effect the Commission's desires in
16 this.
17 We will advise you should we feel the need for
18 another Attorney - Client Session; and otherwise we
19 will be reporting to you in regular public sessions
20 of our progress.
21 Thank you, sir.
22 CHAIRMAN MAYOR DALE: Thank you. The meeting
23 is adjourned.
24 (Thereupon the public and Executive Sessions
25 were concluded.)
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1
2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY /CSR
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 SS.
5 COUNTY OF SEMINOLE )
6 I, C. B. Ellerbe, CP, CSR and Notary Public,
7 State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that I
8 was authorized to and did report the proceedings in
9 the foregoing cause to the best of my abilities,
10 Pages 1 through 133.
11 I further certify that said transcription is a
12 true and correct record of my stenographic report of
411 13 said cause.
14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto affixed my
15 hand and official seals this the 4th day of
16 February, A. D., 2000, in the City of Sanford,
17 County of Seminole, State of Florida.
18 , ;1 /
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19 (SEALS) (
C. . �LLERBE CP CSR
20
CURTIS B. ELLERBE
21 * Commission # CC 396353
is Sep 22, 2002
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22
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23 r r CU.:c
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24 r d� reporter, State c;_ la.
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25
i C. B. Ellerbe & Associates
P.O. Box 1422
Sanford, FL 32772 -1422