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071797 sm agenda & min. AGENDA Sanford City Commission Meeting Special Meeting Thursday, July 17, 1997 3:30 P.M. Sanford City Hall Commission Chambers 300 North Park Avenue Sanford, Florida ****************************************************************************** 1. Update City Commission Members on Labor Management Committee Meeting. 5-3 8 E405354 MINUTES City Commission, Sanford, Florida SPFRIAIJ MFFTTNG .1u1 y 17 1997 P.M. in the City Commission Present: The City Commission of the City of Sanford, H ofida met in Special Meeting on Monday, July 17, 1997, at 3:30 Room, City Hall, 300 North Park Avenue, Sanford, Florida. Mayor-Commissioner Larry A. Dale Commissioner Whitey Eckstein Commissioner Vetma H. Williams Commissioner Brady Lessard Assistant City Attorney Clay Simmons City Manager William A. Simmons Deputy City Clerk Markae Rupp Absent Commissioner Kerry D. Lyons City Clerk Janet R. Dougherty Tape of Labor Management Meeting. The Commission listened to a tape of a portion of the Labor Management Committee Meeting of july 15, 1997 pursuant to a situation which occurred regarding the Canine Patrol, and possible insubordination. Mayor Dale requested the tape be stopped after this particular topic of discussion and asked if anyone had a desire to listen to the remainder of the tape, which had to do with the physical abilities test. Mayor Dale explained the purpose of the meeting was for the Commission and public to hear the tape as specified in the Sunshine Law. He also reported that no charges had been filed. Commissioner Eckstein questioned if a particular quote from Mayor Dale was correct, i.e.; 'T ve run the whole City this way and when I ask somebody to do something they're not going to tell me no, they're going to do it." Mayor Dale said that is probably close, but you can't see the body language when you are sitting here listening to a tape. Commissioner Eckstein asked for clarification as to whether the Mayor was talking about everybody in the City and everybody that works for the City. Mayor Dale commented of course not, I have never tried to tell any police officer or any body else, today this is your job. And I've never tried to tell anybody in the other part of the City, today this is your job. Commissioner Williams questioned what was on the remainder of the tape. Mayor Dale reported it pertained to the physical abilities test and those with medical waivers. The Commission concurred with Commissioner WiIliams they did not need to hear the rest of the tape. Mayor Dale reported in listening two or three times to the tape itself it would be better is he were not on that committee and when discussions on the committee said that he appointed himself as the chairman, he volunteered to be the chair and he thought that everybody had agreed to that but obviously that is not the case; so, if the Commission has no objection he wants to resign from the Committee and let Chief Dillard appoint another member to it, and then they can elect there own chair. The Mayor then asked if anybody objected to that. Commissioner Eckstein reported no, that was fine. Sgt. Mark Nichols of the Sanford Police Department asked if the person to be appointed could be a citizen. Mayor Dale reported that the contract calls for three members of management and three members of labor. Commissioner Lessard stated for the record he objects to the Mayor .resigning because in having him on there we wanted to Ueat this committee seriously and to finvest whatever human resources we have finto making this committee work, but removing himself from that committee doesn't damage the credibility, but certainly has the potential to affect the potential of that committee. Commissioner Williams stated she was somewhat appalled, disappointed and somewhat saddened after listening to the exchange that Wanspired on that tape. She does not place any blame on any particular person, but is very, very sad and E405354 MINUTES City Commission, Sanford, 'Florida 539 SPFCTAI~ MFFTTNG ,l~ll y 17 ~9 97 disappointed to have to listen and have to learn the hard reality that maybe the relationship that she had thought we had developed between the Policemen and the Commission does not really exist. She thought there was a foundation that we at least respected each other enough to accept each others' opinions and have the right to differ without demonstrating any type of disrespect on either side. As Commissioner, she would have to view what happened as what she thinks in terms of the strict definition of insubordination: refusing a direct/ve from your superior, no matter who that person is, that is insubordination. Commissioner Willjams reported we can bounce back. Commissioner Lessard stated we are dealring with adults here, as well as a $5.4 million budget and the citizens are being cheated. He agreed with Sgt. Presley that we need to get back to a non-adversarial committee. Mayor Date stated that whether the Commission likes it or not they are in the chain of command for the Police Department, the Chief does not report to the City Manager. That can not be changed unless the Charter is changed. Commissioner Willjams stated that we are paying $50,000.00 for a study and she does not know why decisions are being considered prior to completion of the study. Mayor Dale stated that is why there is no action to take tonight. But life goes on, and as far as the question of the physical abilities test and other things we have begun to work on, they need to be addressed. Commissioner Willjams felt some of the feelings and emotions that are being discussed could be conveyed before it gets to the Committee. There should be a forum in place. There will be periodic sessions and meetings with the administration and the policemen in which they have an opportunity to express their needs and concerns before it ever gets to the Committee. Maybe the police are pent up with their feelings and concems, to have the oppommity to discuss them makes a difference sometimes. Mayor Dale stated that is probably where we are as far as our form of government. When you have a bright light shining on you and somebody taking notes it is harder to speak about difficult things. Sgt. Darrell Presley responded to some of the Commissioners and the Mayor. He wanted the citizens and each of the Commissioners to know that the officers, both in and out of the Fraternal Order of Police organization, are truly committed and dedicated to this City. He reported they truly want ttds City to be a viable City, they enjoy working here, and are not disgruntled employees. There are some issues that need to be addressed, they have all agreed to that, and they are being addressed. He and the committee members have no personal vendetta or grudge against Mayor Dale or anybody else, and would be more than happy for the Mayor to stay on the Committee if that is his choice, that is obviously between him and the Chief and the Commission and whatever the Commission feels is appropriate. They will be happy to work with whomever the Commission puts on the Committee and give it their best effort. In response to a question of Sgt. Presley from the Mayor as to whether or not he would be receiving a letter from K O.P. Attomey John Head, Sgt. Presley ~aid that at the next Committee meeting he would like the first agenda item to be that they set the rules of the Committee. He feels by setting a clearly defined set of rnles and a clearly defined goal they are going to be able to sidestep the kind of display that took place. Mayor Dale questioned if Sgt. Presley would agree that under our form of government, the Commission is in the chain of command. Sgt Presley responded, "Yes sir, the Chief and the Fire Chief, and if I am not mistaken the City Clerk, all report directly to the Commission. Yes sir, that is my understanding of the chart." Mayor Dale reported that even if we establish the rule, you can't take the chair's prerogative of not cornpromising orders away from him even if you don't agree 54.:0 E405354 I MINUTES City Commission, Sanford, Florida SPECIAL MEETING 3ulv 17 ~997 with it. Sgt. Presley agreed that the chair of any meeting has certain responsibilities. He reported that the taxpayers are all City employees' true employers, and that is who they owe their dedication to. Mayor Date stated the citizens hold the Commission accountable for the Police Department, and we can't do that if we can't question things. Sgt. Presley agreed. Commissioner Willjams thanked Sgt. Presley for coming before the Commission. Mayor Dale reported the Commission has received an overt/me pay request for Corporal David Ansley in the amount of $8,797.37 for one hour overtime per day, seven days a week, .at time and one half from April 2, 1996 to April 29, 1997. This is the invoice Mayor Dale questioned on both sides, how this matter could go for so long. He questioned it on the administrative side as to how this could happen, and on the other side as to how a prudent person when he got his first pay check not say there is no overtime on this; am I to continue to take an hour off, or am I going to get paid. Mayor Dale stated these things can't happen. We cannot be an efficient operation and let these things happen. Commissioner Williams asked if there was documented evidence that he put in the time. Mayor Dale reported there is a thing called the Garcia Rule, a Supreme Court Ruling, where if you are the handler of a dog you either get an hour a day off, with pay, or you are paid t/me and a half for an hour overtime, every day, seven days a week. When Mayor Dale had questioned administration how they had handled it in the past they said they had given him seven hours a week off, and still paying him for his full service time. When Mayor Dale asked who told him to change, there was no documentation there. Corporal Ansley stated he had brought it up to his Commander and never received an answer, and the Mayor had questioned Corporal Ansley why he hadn't put it in writing. Mayor Dale reported that when he started asking questions, as a Commissioner, that he felt the other Commissioners might need answers to (such as how much the overtime amounted to and what they were spending on dogs) that' s when "all Hell broke loose" for whatever reason. The Mayor reported that when he says someone is not prudent, that doesn't question their integrity, it means that in this particular instance they weren't prudent for saying what am I supposed to get, and pursuing it If he asked somebody and they never got back to him, he'd ask them again, and if they didn't get back to him, he'd put it in writing and ask them again, he wouldn't just let it fide free. Commissioner Williams asked what brought it to a head. What motivated him to ask at this time to be paid. Officer Ned Golden reported that Corporal Ansley's dog was retired. Mayor Dale called three times for a motion (to approve payment). Commissioner Lessard moved to table the issue until the July 28, 1997 Commission Meeting to give Corporal Anstey the opportunity to come and discuss this. Seconded by Commissioner Williams and carried by vote of the Commission as follows: Commissioner-Mayor Dale Aye Commissioner Eckstein Aye Commissioner Williams Aye Commissioner Lessard Aye Sgt. Mark Nichols asked if the Mayor was going to stay on the Committee, and the Mayor said they would have to discuss that. There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned. E4053~4 Attest: MINUTES City Commission, Sanford,' Florida SPECIfiE MEETING 541 3ulv 17 m 97